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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6513562" data-attributes="member: 2067">There's been no mention thus far that praying for a miracle is at a higher DC, or has more dire consequences, than, say, performing a Heal check would be. A binary can you/can't you distinction has been the only one made so far. You'd agree that there's no reason not to pray for a miracle if it is mechanically and functionally identical to making some other skill check? An improvised skill may be constrained by Page 42, but if any skill is capable of achieving those results, then what skill one uses is only an issue of narration, without much mechanical distinction. That wouldn't be enjoyable for me. Not really. "Cleric" in D&D is a character archetype, not a particular skill. A character grows in power, fame, renown, honor, ability, etc., etc., as they gain levels, because their character develops through their played experience adding history and context to the character. This may come from many kinds of skills and abilities and adventures and interactions, all driving the archetype itself to become more defined and pointing to greater things this character as accomplished. The difference between cure light wounds and resurrection isn't that a cleric "gets better at praying for miracles," it's that they are becoming a greater force in the world as they advance. Or, to put it another way, the reason a low-level cleric can't cast resurrection isn't because they lack the ability to request it, it is because the gods grant that request only to those who have honored them and have accomplished great things in their name (ie, they've completed adventures and gained XP). A skill changes that dynamic, because a skill is one particular activity that you roll against a DC to accomplish successfully. I don't think I'm disputing any of that, I'm simply saying that I don't think this relationship produces especially satisfying gameplay for me. I want the choice of which skills your character has to be a meaningful and nuanced choice that produces different effects in play. "Pray for a miracle" as a skill hinders that goal in a number of ways.This works well enough for wizards and clerics but starts to fall down a bit when you consider the fact that power sources and ability scores aren't really married. Like, if blasting magic is a function of Arcana, why do Sorcerers do it with Cha? And there are defined ways to bring your friend back from the dead, too. Point basically taken, though.That point does lead me to question more deeply (and not for the first time!) 4e's desire to push attack powers and not just go with a simpler "Page 42 System," but that's probably a broader issue. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> When the skill lets you wish for miracles or produce "magic" it's a bit hard to put that into a situation where you couldn't use it. That's kind of the thing about a miracle - they have no constraints. That's certainly a concept at odds with most religious tradition that most players of D&D are coming from and the stories they're familiar with. It's also at odds with the concept of a miracle -- your god can intercede in the world to save the dying, but can only do that if the praying person "does it right"? That's not you getting better at praying, that's you gaining levels. Which implies that a high Wisdom shouldn't help you gain success here, and that it shouldn't be something you can "train" or "have proficiency in." Which is all well and good, but that means getting a miracle shouldn't be a Religion skill check. Perhaps a straight level check? But then any character could do it. Or a defined theme power or somesuch? But then we're closing off the option from those who didn't take the right character construction choice, and that doesn't seem in keeping with miracles, either...I think you're right (I think this is true about both 4e and 5e), but I think one of the things I appreciate about 5e is that there is significantly less incentive to have a "Do Anything" skill. Because of bounded accuracy, not training a skill doesn't mean you can't hit the DC's, and because of adventure focus rather than encounter focus, there's less pressure to make every skill relevant in all situations. It's OK if Religion isn't useful in helping a dying villager, and it's OK if you have to make a Medicine check without proficiency. Doing that in 4e felt against the "let everyone be useful" philosophy.IMXP, that's just inviting some D&D-style pixel-bitching. "Why not now? What's different? What's changed? Isn't this really the same? You let me do it last time."I don't want convos like that to bog down my game. Which is why I went on about context up above: it might happen under certain circumstances, and in those circumstances, I probably don't have to roll anything.</blockquote>

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