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Can a PC perform a miracle with a stat/skill check?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6513873" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Not much has been said about how stakes might be set and resolved. When I ask whether a stat check (with or without a proficiency bonus from a skill) can be used to do something, I'm assuming that the general framework for setting stakes and adjudicating consequences will be in play.</p><p></p><p>Page 58 of the Basic PDF say, in relation to a stat check, that if "it’s a failure . . . the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM." Although it's not explicitly stated, I assume that the 5e stat check mechanics also permit the GM to impose a setback without progress if the stakes of the check have been framed in such terms.</p><p></p><p>In the context of a prayer for a miracle, setbacks would include contacting the wrong god, or having one's own god visit wrath upon the character for hubris, or (one I use a bit) having the character suffer psychic damage as the attempt to make contact with the divine proves more than his/her brain can handle.</p><p></p><p>I don't see why you say that any skill can achieve "those results" - whatever exactly "those results" might be. Narration is not a negligible constraint, particularly when combined with a relatively robust sense of genre shared around the table. This is an important component of how "free descriptor" systems work - which is one way of playing 4e's skill system, and I imagine is one way of playing 5e's check system.</p><p></p><p>This strikes me as a contentious characterisation of skills - not in the sense of being wrong, but of being only one of multiple ways of approaching skills.</p><p></p><p>Many 4e players who post on these boards, for instance, don't approach 4e skills in the terms you describe - they treat them as they would "free descriptors" in a system like FATE, Marvel Heroic RP or HeroWars/Quest. Because 5e doesn't even have skills in the 4e sense, but pushes more in the direction of 13th Age towards explicity free descriptors, it seems to me that it lends itself even more to that sort of approach if the table wants to play it that way.</p><p></p><p>There is certainly no reason why the question of what can be accomplished with a skill or a stat check can't be answered, in part, by reference to the same things you mention for the cleric - honour, renown, prowess etc. I think this is the default 4e approach - and if not the default, it's certainly how I and some (perhaps many) others run it.</p><p></p><p>My experience is different from yours (and perhaps closer to [MENTION=3887]Mallus[/MENTION]'s). If the players know the sort of systems they're playing, and how the GM is approaching adjudication, they will recognise that not every moment is one in which every option is feasible. As far as the fiction is concerned, it's as easy as saying "The gods ignore your pleas. You'll have to find another way."</p><p></p><p>In 4e terms, this is the GM enforcing, in an informal way, 1x/enc and 1x/day limitations. Or "no more than once per challenge" limitations on skill use in a skill challenge. 5e has similar, if not identical, notions of rationing ability use across sequences of play.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6513873, member: 42582"] Not much has been said about how stakes might be set and resolved. When I ask whether a stat check (with or without a proficiency bonus from a skill) can be used to do something, I'm assuming that the general framework for setting stakes and adjudicating consequences will be in play. Page 58 of the Basic PDF say, in relation to a stat check, that if "it’s a failure . . . the character or monster makes no progress toward the objective or makes progress combined with a setback determined by the DM." Although it's not explicitly stated, I assume that the 5e stat check mechanics also permit the GM to impose a setback without progress if the stakes of the check have been framed in such terms. In the context of a prayer for a miracle, setbacks would include contacting the wrong god, or having one's own god visit wrath upon the character for hubris, or (one I use a bit) having the character suffer psychic damage as the attempt to make contact with the divine proves more than his/her brain can handle. I don't see why you say that any skill can achieve "those results" - whatever exactly "those results" might be. Narration is not a negligible constraint, particularly when combined with a relatively robust sense of genre shared around the table. This is an important component of how "free descriptor" systems work - which is one way of playing 4e's skill system, and I imagine is one way of playing 5e's check system. This strikes me as a contentious characterisation of skills - not in the sense of being wrong, but of being only one of multiple ways of approaching skills. Many 4e players who post on these boards, for instance, don't approach 4e skills in the terms you describe - they treat them as they would "free descriptors" in a system like FATE, Marvel Heroic RP or HeroWars/Quest. Because 5e doesn't even have skills in the 4e sense, but pushes more in the direction of 13th Age towards explicity free descriptors, it seems to me that it lends itself even more to that sort of approach if the table wants to play it that way. There is certainly no reason why the question of what can be accomplished with a skill or a stat check can't be answered, in part, by reference to the same things you mention for the cleric - honour, renown, prowess etc. I think this is the default 4e approach - and if not the default, it's certainly how I and some (perhaps many) others run it. My experience is different from yours (and perhaps closer to [MENTION=3887]Mallus[/MENTION]'s). If the players know the sort of systems they're playing, and how the GM is approaching adjudication, they will recognise that not every moment is one in which every option is feasible. As far as the fiction is concerned, it's as easy as saying "The gods ignore your pleas. You'll have to find another way." In 4e terms, this is the GM enforcing, in an informal way, 1x/enc and 1x/day limitations. Or "no more than once per challenge" limitations on skill use in a skill challenge. 5e has similar, if not identical, notions of rationing ability use across sequences of play. [/QUOTE]
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