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Can a PC perform a miracle with a stat/skill check?
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6530774" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>There's the idea of "fun failure" -- even someone who has an off day or who can't get what they want still wants to come back, because they might get it next time. In a game like golf that involves some skill, the idea is that you can have an off day, but you can also improve from there. Go back and try again. In a game like D&D that's less skill-based, the idea is that you can have a character die or sit through a fight that you're not that interested in because the experience is enjoyable to repeat regardless. It's only at the extreme ends of the curve (when every day is an off day, when all your characters die in their first fight, when you're playing a combat-heavy grindfest) where you'd need to consider more fundamental changes than "show up next time and it'll be different." It's still an enjoyable experience when you don't get what you want.</p><p></p><p>And this plays into something I might be a bit philosophical about, but if one's sense of personal enjoyment is fragile enough to be entirely broken by an off day or two or a few combat-heavy D&D sessions, that person is kind of being a precious little princess about their own expectations. In the world of athletics, dealing with times that you suck is going to be inevitable - it's part of what you sign up for when you play. No one expects you to be happy about it, but everyone expects you to get over it and get back in the game. In D&D, there will be times when you also fail, and there will be times when you don't get the precise play experience you desire. It's part of what you sign up for when you're playing with other people and the game involves chance. No one expects you to be delighted at the combat-heavy session you're not that into, but they do expect you to not have a tantrum over it and to still show up the next session (and, if it goes on for a while, to have a civil talk with the DM about it). </p><p></p><p>So yeah, have an off day, get frustrated, make some compromises, but if that ruins the whole game for you, maybe you want to look into what you're really asking for from the game. If you want to do something where you'll never have an off day or have to be a little uninspired for a moment, you're not looking for a social game with the possibility of failure -- you just can't handle it. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not a necessity, but the people who refuse to tolerate that compromise aren't people I'd play games with -- or probably do much socially with. In much the same way that the guy who lost his cool and pouted about his awful golf game all day wouldn't be someone I'd play golf with much. Every activity with other human beings is going to involve some measure of compromise, and every activity involving some chance of failure is going to have you fail sometimes, and if that's not a price you're willing to sometimes pay, you should probably not do much involving other people or a chance of failure for fun. At the very least, it's not going to be very fun for you. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True, but this is part of why that bit is in there, aligning everyone's X to be the same. The goal of the game is to <em>have fun as a group</em>, and if you're not having fun as a group, you're not doing it right. So be clear about what is fun for you, and allow others to have fun, too. And if you can't delight in others having fun, maybe a game with the goal to "have fun as a player" is more up your alley?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>For me, I'd question how important those precise feels are. For example, something both 3e folks and 4e folks might not find in 5e are the heavy mechanics they're used to. If that helps the newbie player across the table have fun and contribute to the game, does that add to the group's overall fun even if you'd prefer more mechanical grist? For many of my tables (which tend to have a lot of newbies), the answer is a resounding OH GOD YES. Having those people show up and grok the game and have fun playing is a HUGE gain that I'd have trouble achieving in 4e or 3e, even if some of the more experienced folks miss their 5-foot-steps and 101 possible feats. The question is on what is fun <em>as a group</em>, not just for the individual. My gearhead players might grouse about 5e's "limited options," but they get to play it next to enthusiastic, creative new players who dig the simplicity, and aren't so precious about their diverse option array that they can't have fun with the game as it is. </p><p></p><p>For a table mostly made up of those gearheads, the calculus is different, of course -- 5e might not please their group as it is now (I think 5e could stand to have a more "advanced," rules-heavy option for those tables). If 5e doesn't make their group have fun, 5e isn't the right game for them, because they wouldn't be able to meet the game's goals.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6530774, member: 2067"] There's the idea of "fun failure" -- even someone who has an off day or who can't get what they want still wants to come back, because they might get it next time. In a game like golf that involves some skill, the idea is that you can have an off day, but you can also improve from there. Go back and try again. In a game like D&D that's less skill-based, the idea is that you can have a character die or sit through a fight that you're not that interested in because the experience is enjoyable to repeat regardless. It's only at the extreme ends of the curve (when every day is an off day, when all your characters die in their first fight, when you're playing a combat-heavy grindfest) where you'd need to consider more fundamental changes than "show up next time and it'll be different." It's still an enjoyable experience when you don't get what you want. And this plays into something I might be a bit philosophical about, but if one's sense of personal enjoyment is fragile enough to be entirely broken by an off day or two or a few combat-heavy D&D sessions, that person is kind of being a precious little princess about their own expectations. In the world of athletics, dealing with times that you suck is going to be inevitable - it's part of what you sign up for when you play. No one expects you to be happy about it, but everyone expects you to get over it and get back in the game. In D&D, there will be times when you also fail, and there will be times when you don't get the precise play experience you desire. It's part of what you sign up for when you're playing with other people and the game involves chance. No one expects you to be delighted at the combat-heavy session you're not that into, but they do expect you to not have a tantrum over it and to still show up the next session (and, if it goes on for a while, to have a civil talk with the DM about it). So yeah, have an off day, get frustrated, make some compromises, but if that ruins the whole game for you, maybe you want to look into what you're really asking for from the game. If you want to do something where you'll never have an off day or have to be a little uninspired for a moment, you're not looking for a social game with the possibility of failure -- you just can't handle it. It's not a necessity, but the people who refuse to tolerate that compromise aren't people I'd play games with -- or probably do much socially with. In much the same way that the guy who lost his cool and pouted about his awful golf game all day wouldn't be someone I'd play golf with much. Every activity with other human beings is going to involve some measure of compromise, and every activity involving some chance of failure is going to have you fail sometimes, and if that's not a price you're willing to sometimes pay, you should probably not do much involving other people or a chance of failure for fun. At the very least, it's not going to be very fun for you. True, but this is part of why that bit is in there, aligning everyone's X to be the same. The goal of the game is to [I]have fun as a group[/I], and if you're not having fun as a group, you're not doing it right. So be clear about what is fun for you, and allow others to have fun, too. And if you can't delight in others having fun, maybe a game with the goal to "have fun as a player" is more up your alley? For me, I'd question how important those precise feels are. For example, something both 3e folks and 4e folks might not find in 5e are the heavy mechanics they're used to. If that helps the newbie player across the table have fun and contribute to the game, does that add to the group's overall fun even if you'd prefer more mechanical grist? For many of my tables (which tend to have a lot of newbies), the answer is a resounding OH GOD YES. Having those people show up and grok the game and have fun playing is a HUGE gain that I'd have trouble achieving in 4e or 3e, even if some of the more experienced folks miss their 5-foot-steps and 101 possible feats. The question is on what is fun [I]as a group[/I], not just for the individual. My gearhead players might grouse about 5e's "limited options," but they get to play it next to enthusiastic, creative new players who dig the simplicity, and aren't so precious about their diverse option array that they can't have fun with the game as it is. For a table mostly made up of those gearheads, the calculus is different, of course -- 5e might not please their group as it is now (I think 5e could stand to have a more "advanced," rules-heavy option for those tables). If 5e doesn't make their group have fun, 5e isn't the right game for them, because they wouldn't be able to meet the game's goals. [/QUOTE]
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