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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Someone" data-source="post: 5310825" data-attributes="member: 5656">Ah, sorry, I missed the verses on moving through them. It doesn't change the crux of the matter, though, which is that the rules forbid Bob the Godslayer to force the bees to move 5 feet but allow Fido the dog to grab these same bees and not allow them to move. Think on it; Bob was attacked yesterday by the tarrasque and found it mildly amusing, but he's helpless when he faces the simple task of moving a mere swarm of bees 5 feet, unless his DM says it's OK with him. Fido the dog is entitled by the rules to do a perfectly simple Str check to keep the bees in place. There's no reason, based on the pro-grabbing arguments repeated about three hundred times in this thread, to keep Bob from moving the bees. To make this abundantly clear, if it was allowed in the rules, when asked how he bull rushes the swarm Bob's player could say simply "I move them back... with my awesomeness!" and really, it'd not be more ludicrous than coming from he dead once per day. However, right now, if he wants to bees to move he has to invoke page 42, explain how he does that, and his DM could say anything from "No, that's stupid" to "Make so and so check, totally unlike a regular bull rush" or "ok". I just ask why. Why is so important to keep most people from bull rushing swarms, but allowing everyone to grab them? It doesn't make sense from the character balance side: it makes characters with reliable area attacks overpowered when dealing with them, and people who use melee or ranged attacks and forced movement near useless. It doesn't make sense from the heroic fluff perspective that Bob, who makes gods nervously check with their lawyers about "armed assault", can't move the bees if his DM is in a particularly sour mood. What makes sense is, perhaps, that the writer didn't though about anyone wanting to grab a swarm: after all the Enworld comunity seems to not have though on it for 2 years.Really, houseruling that on the fly doesn't look so bad. IMO is not that bad to see that Fido can bite swarms of bees in place, but Bob can't move them and declare that Fido after all can't grab those bees unless he comes up with a good excuse, the same I'd allow Bob to swat the bees 5 feet with his shield.(On a side note, now that I'm on it and checked the grab rules I'll allow creatures to grab enemies much smaller then them:<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Beau-ti-ful.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></blockquote>

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