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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5310844" data-attributes="member: 71571">Who cares about Fido the dog?  Fido the dog is not a character at your game table.  All this talk about Fido the dog is clouding the issue.What you SHOULD be looking at is whether Bob the Godslayer can grab those same bees that he cannot bullrush.  The fact is... he can.  Easily.Bob is not helpless at all before these bees.He can still, say, Vorpal Tornado, or Come and Get It, or Shift the Battlefield.Fighters do have close attacks, and many of those close attacks do have the ability to force things to move.Bob is not helpless at all.Invoking page 42 is quite acceptable.  Describe a way to use the environment or handy tools that it qualifies as an area or close attack, and the push is quite doable.  That's -exactly- what page 42 is for.  There's a reason why page 42 is getting expanded in scope in Essentials. I wouldn't call 5 extra points of damage and the ability to use forced movement overpowered.  And the answer to fix that is 'you can't use grabs either'?Explain that... area and close effects are 'overpowered' against swarms, so therefore you cannot grab swarms.My brain exploded from that one. I can't disagree.  The restriction against forced movement is somewhat odd... but it does make sense in a way.  Regardless, it's irrelevant to the central point.And perhaps they did.  Perhaps someone, generally a player, went... 'Hey, it dsoesn't say I can't grab a swarm of bees.  Can I grab the swarm of bees?'  And the guy running the game, one of the designers of the game went... 'AWESOME!' and thus it was allowed.Cause... fourth edition IS the most playtested roleplaying game ever made.  Except holding a swarm of bees in place is no more like swatting them 5 feet than using vines to restrain them with a druid spell is changing them into a newt.  Unrelated things are unrelated.That's the problem with this stretch of logic... the dots do not connect.More over... who the hell is Fido?  Bob can grab those bees.  Who gives a crap about some dog?  Well, yes, that's allowed in the rules, explicitly.Regardless, your argument points out something completely irrelevant, and uses it as an appeal to emotion so that we go 'Well this other guy can't do this other unrelated thing, therefore NO GRABS FOR ANYONE.'  It's a very weak argument.  Contrast with this:<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/drakestyles/bee-beard-competition3-invalid.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" /></blockquote>

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