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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5313649" data-attributes="member: 71571">DracoSuave: you're simply ignoring what I say at times and at other times presenting (then rebutting) arguments as mine that I'm just not making.The "alpha" fluff doesn't work because (a) not necessarily all swarms follow that structure;</blockquote>No, and just like how you have to refluff tripping when dealing with monsters with six legs, or oozes, or what-not, you have to tailor everything to each individual swarm.  Every attack in the game has to be tailored in this fashion because of the differences in each swarm.You expect consistancy in the fluff for an attack, but this is impossible to do for even a melee basic attack, because the swarms -themselves- are inconsistant.The line you require for fluff to qualify is impossible for -any- single target attack.  What you ask for is unreasonable and unrealistic.  The problem you're dealing with isn't the inconsistancy resultant from the fluff of a grab; the problem is, and always was, the inconsistancy resultant from the fluff of the swarm.  If inconsistancy is the reason to ban grabs, then you have only one logical conclusion:Ban swarms.  That's the source of inconsistancy. I don't understand why you keep bringing up this point.  Grabs don't have to be consistant with forced movement.  I know I keep having to say this, but they aren't related.  Grabs are a form of immobilize.  Grabs are not forced movement-related.  They are related to immobilizes and restrains.Not moving is the opposite of moving.  No, it's a large swarm of angry animals.  Again, the forced movement of individual members does not affect the entire pile. No.  It's still a large swarm of angry animals.  The betas aren't suddenly not biting any more just because they're waiting that couple seconds for those alpha critters to return back.No.  On its turn, there's more than enough time for the alphas to rejoin/direct the herd in another direction.  The individual components of the swarm move very quickly, it's only the collective that does not. Sure they can.  Attack the swarm as usual.  Given the fluff also includes that most single target attacks on the swarm are only effective when applied against alphas, then you already have a mechanical explanation for how to hit the alphas.The swarm dissipates.  That is what is happening when you destroy a swarm, you're not killing each and every individual creature, you're killing enough of the swarm that it 'loses steam' and goes away.  Killing the alphas of a swarm is more than enough fluff to describe the depletion of the swarm's hit points.Hi.  I'm a fighter.  My job is to keep things away from squishier combatants.  One way of doing so is with marks combined with Combat Challenge or Agility.  Those are pretty cool abilities. Or, I could execute a grab action, keeping one enemy adjacent to me.  Next turn, I can use a pull to bring in a second foe who needs less level of control, only using my minors to keep the first enemy adjacent.  Of course, he'll have to beat my Fortitude or Reflex defense in order to get free... if only fighters had a build (sword and board cough) that emphasized Strength and Dexterity (tempest cough)Hi.  I'm an artillery monster.  I do high amounts of damage with my ranged attacks.  I like to move to positions, and my melee attacks are weak.  If there's an attack that a) immobilizes me, and b) keeps me at melee range, then that attack is pretty much going to ruin my day.  Oh and using an action to escape a grapple?  Well, that doesn't take me out of attack range unless I forgo my attack... and if my attacks are getting negated that's pretty much negating my contribution to the battle....Hi.  I'm a rogue.  I don't like monsters that move around too much, cause it's harder for me to take them down through flanking.  Good thing my fighter friend has that guy grabbed!  He's not going anywhere for a while!  Of course, yes, there is an action you can take with a grabbed creature that forces them to move... but you can't do that to swarms, and that's the -least- of the grab's tactical use.  The most important part of a grab is the fact it immobilizes a creature, and doesn't require a saving throw to maintain.  It's of primary use to defenders, for when it's more important to keep an enemy still than to do a round of damage.[/QUOTE]

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