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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 6307842" data-attributes="member: 2525">With regard to rogues not being versatile in combat... (sorry for the long response, but I think it gets to the heart of my difficulty with your view on this).The rogue is the one character that has the most maneuverability in the entire game.  They can go where others cannot, they can move in and strike and withdraw in ways others cannot, they wear the lightest armor so can utilize their full move speed.  They have extremely high skills allowing them to do 'tricks' that others cannot.  The idea that they are the ones lacking in versatility simply strikes me as an extraordinary claim from anyone actually currently playing a rogue in a 5e playtest.In my experience, 5e is a game much 'looser' than 3e or 4e (for lack of a better term). Combat isn't as regimented.  Actions are much more fluid, more open ended, with a much wider range of things to do because of a lack of specific rules covering such things. I know the natural tendency is to think rules assist such things, but I'd argue they constrain people to naturally only try to do things specified as being a rule, or appearing on a lengthy character sheet.There tends to be a lot more swinging on chandeliers, knocking over book cases, tossing slippery objects or liquids on the ground, pulling ropes taunt to trip, running up to high ground, hiding behind statues, and that sort of more-unusual stuff.  Stuff people did as a routine in 1e and 2e, but tended to get away from in 3e and 4e unless there was a rule about it, usually on their character sheet. It was tendency only of course, as some people did them still, nonetheless it was a trend to focus more on your character sheet and what was written there, in 3e and 4e - because there was so much there on that sheet to absorb, and so many specific rules to consider.  That trend seems to have ended with 5e, at least during the playtest.In my experience no class gained as much from moving away from a character-sheet-focus than the rogue.  They have great speed, they have abilities to move, take an action, and move again in a way nobody else can (and it was done in a way that they don't need to look at the sheet or the rule, because it's a unified simple type ability).  They can do such things next to a creature or away from them.  They can hide in ways others cannot.  And they have significantly greater skills to make the kinds of checks usually involved with unusual 'tricks' like I described above.  In my experience, the 5e rogues are the most versatile in combat, of any of the classes.So I am going to ask a serious question - RE, have you played a rogue in the game since the last package came out? And if so, what was your actual experience playing them?Or, is your complaint instead mostly theoretical in nature, where if it cannot show up easily in rather simplified math that cannot account well for the complexities of a more open-ended combat system, then you don't count it?</blockquote>

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