Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 6308215" data-attributes="member: 18">Problem exists between table and chair, as it were! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Not you, your players. If that wasn't enough to convince them, they really were the issue. Literally nothing you've said suggests that the rules were the problem, per se. Except Skill Challenges, I think we can all agree that they sucked hard until DMG2. So there's that!By the way, did the group disenjoy the encounter you described, or just you? Or did no-one disenjoy it?Wow. This is just so much silly business in such a small space. Page 42 absolutely cannot be reasonably or fairly summarized that way, there are no such implications whatsoever (seriously, quote them or cite them if you are going to insist on that), and that is not an "emergent quality" of 4E, and frankly, saying that it is as a fact, which you are, strikes me as edition-warring.Niche protection was strong I agree - it's extremely strong in 5E, so I'm not exactly sure what your argument is there. I cannot, for example, in 5E, just decide to be an awesome healer, if I am the Fighter - or indeed if I am any non-caster (as of October). Why? Because that's a niche, which as been protected. By the rules. Using powers. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Likewise, as a Fighter, I cannot decide to be an awesome stealth dude. Why? Because that niche has been protected. So I'm not sure you even know what you're arguing there.Your example problem, too, shows bad player behaviour, not bad rules, so I'm not sure what you think that proves.I agree that if you don't want to play 4E, you shouldn't play 4E, which is what you seem to be saying here. Yeah, if you hate all that, 4E is not for you. The thing is, if you dislike all that, right now, it looks like 5E is not for you, because right now, 5E is pretty hard to house-rule back into anything resembling 4E - you'd basically have to re-write the entire game from the ground up. Personally, I don't need that, but it's the same logic you're using - you want to completely change how the game plays - you need to basically re-write it, well, yes...Further, Mistwell certainly shares my 3E experience, as did many others, so...Magic-everything world? What? 4E is the only D&D edition, ever, that doesn't have to feature a "magic-everything" world - where you could have a party consisting solely of non-magic users, and not be kind of screwed. You could have a Warlord, a Controller Ranger, a Fighter, a Rogue and you'd have all the roles covered (and covered well) without magic. That objection literally makes no sense to me.I wasn't previously talking extensive, class-changing house rules, though, so you've changed the subject, to be clear.I was talking at-the-table play, stunts, and so on. For me and many others, 4E brought that back. Not so for some others,  and that's sad, but I don't believe it crushed them any more than 3E.??? I literally have no idea what you are on about, but I'm glad that it would have been more fun! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Anyway, I'm not going to argue this further, because it feels like some people want to have edition war and claim 4E was the devil or something, that bewitched their players into evil (or at least boredom!). The cold fact of it is, that no-one has cited anything which actually says that niche protection had to be enforced when doing Page 42 stuff (and frankly, it makes no sense for it to be), and indeed no-one has cited any actual, real, 4E rules as problematic, per se (except Skill Challenges, which weren't the topic of discussion, but yes, they sucked), rather than player reactions to their character sheets. Niche protection exists in every edition of D&D, and 4E enforced it differently to, but no more harshly than any other edition. I'm not negating anyone's experiences, note, I'm sure that all happened, but the reasons stated for some of them are seriously sketchy.NB: One thing Mistwell mentioned was power cards - and this is interesting - I think much of the problem was the fact that people often had power cards and the like, and the physical nature of these made them think very much inside the box, like a wargame. I've seen the same thing as far back as 2E - when we had spell cards, the mages pretty much thought entirely of those spells, and often just shuffled through them looking for a solution to their problem - rather than thinking about their character as an actual character. So I've seen that - but that's not rules - that's presentation.</blockquote>

Verification