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Message: <blockquote data-quote="(Psi)SeveredHead" data-source="post: 5341486" data-attributes="member: 1165">Still more than you get from Charisma (until 4e, anyway): anyone can use a high Wisdom to boost your Will save. I usually dumped a 12 or 14 into a fighter or ranger's Wisdom just for that.Still, anyone can use skill points.But they usually get at least +1 (enough to make a 12 or 13 worthwhile) and for some reason wearing heavy plate has no impact on your Reflex save.But rogues, rangers, and just about anyone who ever uses a non-ranged weapon (and even then, sometimes) gets at least a small bonus from it. I don't think I've ever seen an 8 Strength rogue, but 8 Charisma rogues? All the time! (I'm assuming you're taking Weapon Finesse... which does nothing for damage. And at least in 3.0 you could not sneak attack COUPies.)Still, many of those options are based on items and spells, which can be made use of by any class (the latter through scrolls, wands, magic items using those spells, asking the party caster to help, etc). Much of the material in the Complete Books and Spell Compendium were, in fact, overpowered compared to core material. Of course sometimes they were trying to fix previous problems, but more splats means more work for the DM, since you can't rely on their playtesting. (And I would know; I've playtested some products.)Another possibility are weaknesses in the skills system and lack of Defenses.Almost anyone can use Strength. If you use a melee or throwing weapon, it's useful. The number of classes who shouldn't bother are pretty small: wizard, sorcerer, maybe druid. As a result, I see Strength dumped to 8 very rarely, and usually only for the classes I just listed.Almost anyone can use Dexterity. It boosts ACs for all classes, even though for some (paladin, cleric, fighter) the boost might cap out at +1. Still, it's a +1, and a bonus to Reflex saves never hurt. In short, no one likes to die, so anyone can use Dex. I see Dex dumped for clerics and paladins sometimes, and in part because Charisma cannot be dumped for either, IMO.Is there anyone who does not want Con? Virtually noone ever maxes it out, but everyone likes hit points and save-vs-Destruction spells.Intelligence is an odd one. Even obscure skills can be useful from time to time, to the point where the only times I've ever seen a low Int is if someone wanted to play a particularly dumb half-orc barbarian... for the roleplaying. (It helps that barbarian skill point totals don't suck.) I see Int 10 all the time, but  almost noone likes the stigma of having a dumb character. Mechanically a pretty weak stat. (Even weaker in 4e!)Wisdom is a bit better. It boosts Will saves. Even a Wisdom of 12, giving you a +1, is better than a Wisdom of 10, which gives you a +0. I don't think I've ever seen a Wisdom score of 8 (as they will have no will of their own when facing spellcasters) except for roleplaying purposes. Again seen on dumb barbarians, who can boost their Will saves with rage.Charisma ... affects a few skills and some class abilities (some significantly). Some classes rarely if ever use such skills. As stated above, it's quite binary. But for some characters, it's completely useless, and you might as well dump it to 8. If you're a fighter and you don't plan on taking ranks in Intimidate, dump it to 8. If you're a rogue who isn't going to take ranks in Bluff and Improved Feint, dump it to 8. If you had a Charisma of 12 instead, your untrained Bluff score would have been only 2 points higher. And if you took training in Bluff... it would still only have been 2 points higher.It has no impact on your defenses whatsoever, and (unlike the variety of attack forms) everyone wants and needs higher defenses. In 4e, it can apply to a defense, and I think I'm seeing more non-8 Cha characters now, because they can dump Wisdom without much penalty. (Also seeing lots of high Int, low Dex warlords. Basic min-maxing.) Also, some classes that didn't find it that useful before (eg rogue) now find it very useful with the right type of build. (And warlord is a new class, in terms of core rule classes. Charisma is probably more useful overall in 4e, both because more classes "like" it, and because it can boost a defense.)It doesn't help that many social skills are poorly written. Yes, you can spend an action using Intimidate to inflict a minor penalty on an opponent for 1 round. Or you could just stab him again. Which seems like the better option?Even the heavy skills-based d20 Modern suffers from this. Unless you want to take some of the better Charismatic talents (Inspiration, I'm looking at you) or Frightful Presence, Charisma doesn't do a whole lot. You can (and I've seen this) play a low Charisma character with Charismatic levels, boosting their social skills with talents like Fast Talk while spending stats on things to make up for their low hit points and attack rolls.</blockquote>

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