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<blockquote data-quote="NichG" data-source="post: 5341650" data-attributes="member: 44666">Well in the case of the +70 Will save it was gestalt but characters capped at 6th level, so we're not talking about anything a 12th level character couldn't also do.As far as core only goes, I guess what I'd say is this: the thread asks 'can Charisma ever be more than a dump stat?' and my answer is 'In 3.5ed with splat books, yes, but it goes too far'. If you're running a 3.5ed game core only and find that the person who went high into Charisma isn't getting much out of it, allow them to use some of the feats that swap Charisma for other stats from non-core, even give them the feats for free, and problem solved. Then again, perhaps thats not the real problem. Suggesting Charisma as a defense is interesting. It might be that one wants to force people to think twice before having low Charisma or even punish those that excessively dumpstat it (i.e. 6 Charisma), rather than to reward those with high Charisma. In that case, a DM has a lot of options: They can occasionally have enemies that have Charisma damage/drain attacks, or poisons/diseases that target Charisma. They can have intelligent magic items that refuse to work for the owner unless they can hit a certain DC Charisma check. They can, as has been mentioned, have NPCs and monsters react to a passive PC based on their Charisma (i.e. first impression). My general feel is its better to encourage players to be brilliant than shackle them to their small numbers, since everyone has more fun when clever things are done. As such I don't like to penalize that sort of dump-statting in the roleplay interactions - if I'm going to do that, I'd rather do it mechanically, and focus mainly on giving bonuses than giving penalties.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="NichG, post: 5341650, member: 44666"] Well in the case of the +70 Will save it was gestalt but characters capped at 6th level, so we're not talking about anything a 12th level character couldn't also do. As far as core only goes, I guess what I'd say is this: the thread asks 'can Charisma ever be more than a dump stat?' and my answer is 'In 3.5ed with splat books, yes, but it goes too far'. If you're running a 3.5ed game core only and find that the person who went high into Charisma isn't getting much out of it, allow them to use some of the feats that swap Charisma for other stats from non-core, even give them the feats for free, and problem solved. Then again, perhaps thats not the real problem. Suggesting Charisma as a defense is interesting. It might be that one wants to force people to think twice before having low Charisma or even punish those that excessively dumpstat it (i.e. 6 Charisma), rather than to reward those with high Charisma. In that case, a DM has a lot of options: They can occasionally have enemies that have Charisma damage/drain attacks, or poisons/diseases that target Charisma. They can have intelligent magic items that refuse to work for the owner unless they can hit a certain DC Charisma check. They can, as has been mentioned, have NPCs and monsters react to a passive PC based on their Charisma (i.e. first impression). My general feel is its better to encourage players to be brilliant than shackle them to their small numbers, since everyone has more fun when clever things are done. As such I don't like to penalize that sort of dump-statting in the roleplay interactions - if I'm going to do that, I'd rather do it mechanically, and focus mainly on giving bonuses than giving penalties. [/QUOTE]

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