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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mallus" data-source="post: 5766747" data-attributes="member: 3887">No. I think you're on to something about the the value of not always getting what you (think) you want, but I disagree with your focus on certain mechanics. Does it? In 3e, human was widely considered one of, if not the best racial choice, optimization-wise. But that's classic example of front-loading. Demi-human level limits only come into play if the campaign lasted to those levels. Which was hardly a given. Most 1e/2e play I saw ran from levels 1-9, with the rare campaign going past level 12. Which, given the general number inflation/proliferation of both kinds and sizes of other bonuses in later editions, means quite a bit less than it used to.  This is a bit of a wash. The way different classes participate in combat has changed, but all classes had combat roles, because monster-fighting has always been a core activity.Sure, later editions give classes like "rogue" and "cleric" flashier new combat abilities/spells, but they also give monsters more HP and higher ACs. In AD&D --which I'm running now-- a thief with a good DEX and a short bow is quite effective in combat. They can't sneak attack every round, but their opponents have far fewer hit points (mostly) and their ACs don't scale like in 3e or 4e. Like I said, a wash. Niche protection isn't a big thing for me --I like cafeteria-style point buy systems like HERO/M&M--  and the power creep is largely illusory IMHO, but I'm totally with you on the more maths thing. Later D&D is plagued by bigger numbers. They're unnecessary -- a few sessions running AD&D really drives that one home.  Now if we turn the focus towards the actual events of a campaign; PC goals instead of PC build mechanics, then there's an unquestionable value to the players not getting everything they want. A setting that denies the players (some of) their wishes seems a lot more real. A world you have to push against to make headway is simply more believable (not to mention dramatic).</blockquote>

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