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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EnglishLanguage" data-source="post: 6276439" data-attributes="member: 6774827">Combat maneuvers=turns your spending not attacking. 9 times out of 10, any turns you spent tripping/grabbing/bull rushing enemies are turns better spent making them dead faster. This is also before getting into the penalties you suffer for attacking enemies bigger than you, how DCs are higher because most enemies you'd spend the turn using maneuvers on have better stats than you, and how many enemies are outright immune to those maneuvers(which is typically enemies that can fly and teleport, or have access to freedom of movement). That and the number of feats you need to take to make the maneuver worthwhile means those things are incredibly commonplace by the time the maneuver's actually useable and by then you've dedicated your whole build to that now useless maneuver.Attack and Damage=As I've said, damage is easily the least effective way of dealing with enemies. Yes, the Fighter does eventually get enough damage to ground pretty much anything into paste by round 2, and that's never been the Fighter's problem. His biggest problem has always been his lack of narrative power, and by the time the Fighter's finally learned how to trip people reliably, the Wizard's starting to make his own Demiplanes and Druids are turning into a Dire Bear with his Dire Bear companion and maul a group of enemies with his additional Dire Bear summonsThe fact that the Fighter's only use is grabbing the first levels for proficiencies and a bonus feat or two is sad.Plus I know about 12 different Char-Opers who's response to anyone telling them he Fighter's fine because they have attack and maneuvers would just laugh at you and assume you're joking. The 3.5 Fighter is not fine at all. Even people that don't like the fighter surely have to admit that it's a great dip for two or four levels before you multiclass and/or prestige. The problem is the levels where you don't get feats, not the ones where you do. Bonus feats are extremely powerful, more so than almost any of the exclusive class abilities which one might compare them to.The Pathfinder Fighter is actually a flat nerf from the 3.5 Fighter believe it or not. The lack of flaws for feats means that the PF Fighter doesn't get as many feats as the 3.5 Fighter can until at least level 10, the good maneuver feats you're so fond of have all been broken down into other feats, and the Fighter's damage potential was kneecapped so his ability to beat enemies into paste on round 2 is no longer possible.(Pathfinder actually pretty heavy handidly nerfed martials and buffed casters altogether, but that's it's own rant I'm not getting into right now).</blockquote>

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