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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 6278442" data-attributes="member: 5143">Back in the day when we played 2e, our group would argue about Vancian spellcasting endlessly.&nbsp; No one thought that it sounded realistic in the slightest.&nbsp; It seemed very metagame.&nbsp; After all, when you pray for spells why does your god limit you to 2 of them because you are first level?&nbsp; He doesn't trust you enough to give you 3 or 4 or better yet as many as you need to spread his teachings and protect and heal his followers?&nbsp; Same thing with a Paladin.&nbsp; You can smite evil 1/day...but twice?&nbsp; Seriously, your god would rather you die than give that kind of power to a neophyte.&nbsp; You might abuse it by...smiting more evil?But your character can't ask for more because you need more on that particular day?&nbsp; There's no negotiation or method to use more spells, just game rules that say &quot;You get X spells from this list&quot;.&nbsp; You also can't make up your own spells.&nbsp; You need to choose from a specific list of spells that exist.&nbsp; That list somehow changes based on which splat books are released.&nbsp; They are organized in levels and slots which make no sense at all.&nbsp; How would a character even talk about this in game:&nbsp; &quot;Can you cast Cure Light Wounds today?&quot; &quot;No, my god only gives me 3 slots which he calls 'first level' and I decided to fill the slots with 3 other spells instead.&nbsp; Tomorrow, I will clear one of those slots and prepare that one instead.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;How come the other priest can cast 5 'first level' spells?&quot;&nbsp; &quot;I don't know.&nbsp; I think he has killed more monsters or our god likes him better or something.&quot;The same thing applies to Wizards though because Wizards use books and a system of magic that they pretty much invented, weird rules are a little more expected.&nbsp; Still, the concept that you could only prepare 2 'first level' spells then you killed 10 Orcs and could now cast 3 'first level' spells didn't make much sense to any of our characters.&nbsp; How come I can memorize more now?&nbsp; Did my brain get bigger?&nbsp; Did I install a new stick of RAM?&nbsp; Did my memory exercises finally pay off and I can add more things to my 'mind palace'?&nbsp; How did that happen because I killed some monsters?It doesn't feel like a natural part of the world at all.&nbsp; It feels like something that was tacked on to the ruleset in order to balance the game.&nbsp; Which we eventually all agreed to accept and move on with playing the game instead of making a big deal about how vancian spellcasting made no sense in game at all.And that difference doesn't mean anything to me at all.&nbsp; There is no mystical being arbitrarily telling a Wizard he can only prepare 2 spells rather than 3, that ability comes from him but somehow his limitation &quot;makes sense&quot; to people.&nbsp; &quot;It's magic!&quot; simply doesn't do it for me as an explanation.&nbsp; Even a god arbitrarily restricting the number of uses doesn't make much sense to me.&nbsp; It's all pretty much the same thing.&nbsp; A limitation to make sure the game doesn't get out of control that we ignore and simply don't mention in character to avoid pointing out the silliness of the situation in the game.Yep, and I don't see why that same reason can't apply to any non-magic system within the game as well?&nbsp; &quot;Why can't I use Trip more than once a day?&quot;&nbsp; &quot;It's a traditional D&amp;D-ism; a genre conceit specific to this game.&quot;</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 6278442, member: 5143"] Back in the day when we played 2e, our group would argue about Vancian spellcasting endlessly. No one thought that it sounded realistic in the slightest. It seemed very metagame. After all, when you pray for spells why does your god limit you to 2 of them because you are first level? He doesn't trust you enough to give you 3 or 4 or better yet as many as you need to spread his teachings and protect and heal his followers? Same thing with a Paladin. You can smite evil 1/day...but twice? Seriously, your god would rather you die than give that kind of power to a neophyte. You might abuse it by...smiting more evil? But your character can't ask for more because you need more on that particular day? There's no negotiation or method to use more spells, just game rules that say "You get X spells from this list". You also can't make up your own spells. You need to choose from a specific list of spells that exist. That list somehow changes based on which splat books are released. They are organized in levels and slots which make no sense at all. How would a character even talk about this in game: "Can you cast Cure Light Wounds today?" "No, my god only gives me 3 slots which he calls 'first level' and I decided to fill the slots with 3 other spells instead. Tomorrow, I will clear one of those slots and prepare that one instead." "How come the other priest can cast 5 'first level' spells?" "I don't know. I think he has killed more monsters or our god likes him better or something." The same thing applies to Wizards though because Wizards use books and a system of magic that they pretty much invented, weird rules are a little more expected. Still, the concept that you could only prepare 2 'first level' spells then you killed 10 Orcs and could now cast 3 'first level' spells didn't make much sense to any of our characters. How come I can memorize more now? Did my brain get bigger? Did I install a new stick of RAM? Did my memory exercises finally pay off and I can add more things to my 'mind palace'? How did that happen because I killed some monsters? It doesn't feel like a natural part of the world at all. It feels like something that was tacked on to the ruleset in order to balance the game. Which we eventually all agreed to accept and move on with playing the game instead of making a big deal about how vancian spellcasting made no sense in game at all. And that difference doesn't mean anything to me at all. There is no mystical being arbitrarily telling a Wizard he can only prepare 2 spells rather than 3, that ability comes from him but somehow his limitation "makes sense" to people. "It's magic!" simply doesn't do it for me as an explanation. Even a god arbitrarily restricting the number of uses doesn't make much sense to me. It's all pretty much the same thing. A limitation to make sure the game doesn't get out of control that we ignore and simply don't mention in character to avoid pointing out the silliness of the situation in the game. Yep, and I don't see why that same reason can't apply to any non-magic system within the game as well? "Why can't I use Trip more than once a day?" "It's a traditional D&D-ism; a genre conceit specific to this game." [/QUOTE]

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