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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6288549" data-attributes="member: 87792">Then&nbsp; you need to find me a system where this happens.&nbsp; Fate Points, Plot&nbsp; Points, Karma Points are all fungible and go into a pot.&nbsp; There are very&nbsp; few times you can say specifically &quot;This plot point came from that&nbsp; event&quot;.&nbsp; You can say &quot;I am relaxed, happy, and buoyed by confidence from&nbsp; recent events such as rescuing people&quot;.&nbsp; And possibly you are going to&nbsp; find something wrong with that - but I don't see any problem with&nbsp; suspension of disbelief here.One solid hit.&nbsp; Next question?Indeed.&nbsp; There are very few games that don't have skill systems.Once more you are inventing characters who do not pace themselves.&nbsp;&nbsp; You don't always want to do your very best.&nbsp; Sometimes you just want to&nbsp; do competently, saving your best for when it is needed.&nbsp; I'm not going&nbsp; to burn through my fatigue facing kobolds when I know there's a dragon&nbsp; around, leaving myself exhausted for the dragon, unless I have no other&nbsp; choice.The problem here is that supposedly associated systems, by their&nbsp; nature, put bounds on what you can do this way.&nbsp; If we look at, for&nbsp; example, D&amp;D 3.X, it might &quot;make sense&quot; that you can choose to put&nbsp; in that extra effort - but putting in the extra effort has absolutely no effect.&nbsp;&nbsp; (Unless you are a barbarian who has started raging or the like).&nbsp; In an&nbsp; associated system if you do not have fatigue points then you can't&nbsp; meaningfully put in extra effort under the rules of the game.&nbsp; If you&nbsp; are playing GURPS you can, of course.&nbsp; But I've written at length in the&nbsp; past about GURPS, Fate, and Alcoholism.&nbsp; And the rules overhead for&nbsp; GURPS is higher than that In an associated system you are&nbsp; playing a pawn using the rules of physics that match to the game&nbsp; engine.&nbsp; Associated systems tell you there is literally nothing out&nbsp; there other than that which is specifically modelled by the&nbsp; game engine.&nbsp; This is where the &quot;Fighter can fight all day at top&nbsp; efficiency&quot; idea comes from.&nbsp; Although there are magical effects that&nbsp; fatigue a character in 3.X, general fatigue from hard work does not exist.&nbsp;&nbsp; Therefore the characters don't experience it.&nbsp; Therefore fighters can&nbsp; fight all day (as is a common argument for fighters in the fighter vs&nbsp; wizard debate).In a so-called disassociated system you are not&nbsp; compelled to run a character under the artificial physics model&nbsp; represented by associated rules.&nbsp; In fact you get to decide how your&nbsp; character thinks and where their stress points are.&nbsp; And it might vary&nbsp; week to week or session to session.It might be possible&nbsp; to make an associated system that meaningfully captures all the&nbsp; important factors that a disassociated system like Fate does.&nbsp; But I've&nbsp; not seen one yet.&nbsp; Not GURPS, not Rolemaster, not Rifts, not D20 Modern&nbsp; or 3.X.&nbsp; Not even all the code involved in creating World of Warcraft.&nbsp;&nbsp; And it would have to be an order of magnitude bigger than any of them&nbsp; (except possibly WoW) because anything the rules system doesn't capture&nbsp; directly isn't something that is ever important.&nbsp; Fate (or most other&nbsp; disassociated systems) capture whatever is important at the time - and the rules for Fate will fit on a side of A4 with PCs fitting on index cards and NPCs on post-it notes.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6288549, member: 87792"] Then you need to find me a system where this happens. Fate Points, Plot Points, Karma Points are all fungible and go into a pot. There are very few times you can say specifically "This plot point came from that event". You can say "I am relaxed, happy, and buoyed by confidence from recent events such as rescuing people". And possibly you are going to find something wrong with that - but I don't see any problem with suspension of disbelief here. One solid hit. Next question? Indeed. There are [I]very[/I] few games that don't have skill systems. Once more you are inventing characters who do not pace themselves. You don't always want to do your very best. Sometimes you just want to do competently, saving your best for when it is needed. I'm not going to burn through my fatigue facing kobolds when I know there's a dragon around, leaving myself exhausted for the dragon, unless I have no other choice. The problem here is that supposedly associated systems, by their nature, put bounds on what you can do this way. If we look at, for example, D&D 3.X, it might "make sense" that you can choose to put in that extra effort - but putting in the extra effort has [I]absolutely no effect[/I]. (Unless you are a barbarian who has started raging or the like). In an associated system if you do not have fatigue points then you [I]can't[/I] meaningfully put in extra effort under the rules of the game. If you are playing GURPS you can, of course. But I've written at length in the past about GURPS, Fate, and Alcoholism. And the rules overhead for GURPS is higher than that In an associated system you are playing a pawn using the rules of physics that match to the game engine. Associated systems tell you there is literally nothing out there other than that which is [I]specifically[/I] modelled by the game engine. This is where the "Fighter can fight all day at top efficiency" idea comes from. Although there are magical effects that fatigue a character in 3.X, general fatigue from hard work [I]does not exist[/I]. Therefore the characters don't experience it. Therefore fighters can fight all day (as is a common argument for fighters in the fighter vs wizard debate). In a so-called disassociated system you are not compelled to run a character under the artificial physics model represented by associated rules. In fact you get to decide how your character thinks and where their stress points are. And it might vary week to week or session to session. It [I]might [/I]be possible to make an associated system that meaningfully captures all the important factors that a disassociated system like Fate does. But I've not seen one yet. Not GURPS, not Rolemaster, not Rifts, not D20 Modern or 3.X. Not even all the code involved in creating World of Warcraft. And it would have to be an order of magnitude bigger than any of them (except possibly WoW) because anything the rules system doesn't capture directly isn't something that is ever important. Fate (or most other disassociated systems) capture whatever is important [I]at the time[/I] - and the rules for Fate will fit on a side of A4 with PCs fitting on index cards and NPCs on post-it notes. [/QUOTE]

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