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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6289934" data-attributes="member: 42582">That works as long as the emphasis is on the word &quot;model&quot;. Of course the ingame reality is as objective as any such thing can be. But the mechanics aren't generally a model of it (though some are: eg a PC's theme, paragon path and epic destiny all tell us something about the ingame reality; so does a PC's equipment inventory or position on a battlemap).I'm with some other posters, however, in taking the view that 4e is not as unique in this respect as you believe. If you look at Gygax's descriptions of hit points and of saving throws in his DMG, I think they're both closer to the 4e style than the 3E style. And the AD&amp;D action economy is as abstract as the 4e one also, in my view - in some ways probably moreso, because of the very long (1 minute) rounds.Even if you look at Lolth's -10 AC, what does this tell us about the gameworld, other than that she has so much Demon Queen mojo that only high level character's have any real chance of hurting her?(For that matter, in my view some features of 3E, such as its natural armour bonuses, are in the same category. What does a +30 natural armour bonus - a bonus far larger than the most magical of plate armour can grant - actually model in the gameworld. It's just a label given to a number that has been worked out using the same metagame rationale as underpins 4e's monster buildig rules.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6289934, member: 42582"] That works as long as the emphasis is on the word "model". Of course the ingame reality is as objective as any such thing can be. But the mechanics aren't generally a model of it (though some are: eg a PC's theme, paragon path and epic destiny all tell us something about the ingame reality; so does a PC's equipment inventory or position on a battlemap). I'm with some other posters, however, in taking the view that 4e is not as unique in this respect as you believe. If you look at Gygax's descriptions of hit points and of saving throws in his DMG, I think they're both closer to the 4e style than the 3E style. And the AD&D action economy is as abstract as the 4e one also, in my view - in some ways probably moreso, because of the very long (1 minute) rounds. Even if you look at Lolth's -10 AC, what does this tell us about the gameworld, other than that she has so much Demon Queen mojo that only high level character's have any real chance of hurting her? (For that matter, in my view some features of 3E, such as its natural armour bonuses, are in the same category. What does a +30 natural armour bonus - a bonus far larger than the most magical of plate armour can grant - actually model in the gameworld. It's just a label given to a number that has been worked out using the same metagame rationale as underpins 4e's monster buildig rules.) [/QUOTE]

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