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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pming" data-source="post: 6425336" data-attributes="member: 45197">Hiya.WARNING: Old Grognardis Curmudgeonae thought streams below...  I don't like min/maxers...er..."optimizers", I guess the current politically correct term is. I don't enjoy listening to them drone on and on about how cool their sheet of stats is (it's almost never anything even approaching a character). I don't enjoy debating ever little rule with them. I certainly don't enjoy DM'ing their uber-character.  Now that that is established, I have had the misfortune of trying to DM one or two on occasion. The only thing that seems to work quickly, is a two-fold attack.  First: I have to be a bit more narrative in terms of running the game. Basically, try and keep "numbers" out of it. I won't say, "OK, you can shoot him from where you are if you want; it will be at +2 to hit", and in stead I'll say "OK, you can shoot him from where you are if you want; it will be more accurate". I don't actually use/say a numerical bonus. I've found taking the mentioning of numbers and specific game stuff (feats, spells, monsters, etc) out of the game as much as possible, to be a good thing. It may initially be a bit jarring and uncomfortable for an 'optimizer' to not actually know what "game specific thing" is going on other than the basics. It's kind of like watching an addict go through withdrawal, in a way. Some suffer though it, others snap and go find some other game to get their fix.  Second: Don't let the optimizer roll dice, if at all possible. If his character has +12 to hit and +24 damage on both his attacks (as a level 1 fighter in 3.x/PF, lets say)...don't let him roll dice when he attacks the 6 goblins. When it comes to his turn, I just say something like "Oh, yeah, Vorn the Vicious kills two goblins"...then I immediately move on to the next player. The optimizer is craving recognition of how kewl and l337 his character building skills are. Don't give it to him! If...er...when...he starts to complain about being "bored" or "not getting to play", I calmly start being honest with him on what's going on. I tell him "Really? You are bored because you don't get to roll 2, 20-sided dice to see if you get a 1? I mean, these goblins have AC 14 and 9hp; you will rarely miss, and any hit will instantly kill them. You know whats boring? Watching you roll dice just to see how high you can count. There is no challenge for your character. The excitement of combat is watching the dice roll to see if you did/didn't do something, or how well you did or didn't do it. Your character is so optimized that the dice roll is almost irreverent; your character is all but guaranteed to have the exact same outcome 95% of the time. There is no mystery or anticipation. You have taken almost all of the chance out of the equation. Ergo, why bother rolling dice and waste everyone else's time?".  I know that seems harsh, but as I said, I really *really* hate optimizers. And by optimizer I mean one who's every character building decision is based purely on the numbers game of what he is trying to achieve with that "build". Someone who makes a character that is really good at something (example, making an archer and choosing elf, ranger, and a feat or two that gives bonuses to archery) isn't "optimizing", IMHO. That is simply creating a character who is good at something. But when it's obvious that the player's primary focus for creating the character is to "game the system" and create the most broken "archer" as quickly as possible...that is "optimizing".  Of course, if you and your group ALL enjoy that part of the game...go for it! Min/Max to your hearts content. It's your game, play it the way you want. That said, if you show up to my game and get the treatment above...don't be surprised.^_^Paul L. Ming</blockquote>

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