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Can somebody explain the bias against game balance?
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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5135577" data-attributes="member: 957"><p>Compared to any other game I know of, the Rogue is far better at holding a tough monster at bay and the Paladin is better at eliminating the threat posed by traps.</p><p></p><p>Characters can be experts in something, but everyone is at least clearly competent in practically everything.</p><p></p><p>It has been praised by 4E fans many times that the game no longer "grinds to a halt" because the party wizard has no chance to climb a wall that is a challenge to a rogue. To those of us who never had an issue with anything grinding to a halt, the simulation aspects of being in a complex world with unlimited challenges is lost to the math working constraints of conflict-resolution board game balance.</p><p></p><p>The range of skill level is present in areas of focus. But it is muted. The range of skill level in average areas or weak areas is deeply diminished.</p><p></p><p>I went through a long debate on this topic before. Someone ended up posting their mid level 4E character sheets to show me wrong. I pointed out that the primary attacks of each character all ended up in the same tight range. This is obvious really, since it is 1/2 level plus prime ability (which is going to be nearly the same), plus a handful of other similarly regulate bonuses define the amount. Even selecting the weakest of skills, ones for which a character was of minimal ability, the chance of success against an "average" challenge was better than 50/50 and even "very difficult" challenges were around 10% chance of success. </p><p></p><p>People praise page 42. To me the idea that the parameter ranges for correctly balanced can be captured in a single page is deeply undesirable. </p><p></p><p>It has been explained to me that a blackguard in full plate and a pirate in a torn shirt have the same AC because they are appropriate challenges this way. I'd rather they be a pirate and a black guard first and this includes mechanically realizing them appropriate mechanical elements, not starting with the mechanics determined before the npc is defined and working backwards to show horn the skin over the same frame.</p><p></p><p>"The math works" is a stated goal of 4E. And the math *does* work. For good and for bad. The paladin being different than the rogue because we are only talking about the paladin's specialty is true. But so is saying that two 16" pizzas are different because one has a slice of pepperoni sitting in the center and the other has an olive.</p><p></p><p>I'm glad 4E works great for a lot of people. But there are a lot of good reasons to find other approaches preferable. The OP seems to think that the only possible reason is min/maxing, which he has no sympathy for. I have sympathy for not being able to see the other opportunities that are out there. After all, it may be that you would still prefer the total rule of balance, but how do you know if you don't know what the alternatives are?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 5135577, member: 957"] Compared to any other game I know of, the Rogue is far better at holding a tough monster at bay and the Paladin is better at eliminating the threat posed by traps. Characters can be experts in something, but everyone is at least clearly competent in practically everything. It has been praised by 4E fans many times that the game no longer "grinds to a halt" because the party wizard has no chance to climb a wall that is a challenge to a rogue. To those of us who never had an issue with anything grinding to a halt, the simulation aspects of being in a complex world with unlimited challenges is lost to the math working constraints of conflict-resolution board game balance. The range of skill level is present in areas of focus. But it is muted. The range of skill level in average areas or weak areas is deeply diminished. I went through a long debate on this topic before. Someone ended up posting their mid level 4E character sheets to show me wrong. I pointed out that the primary attacks of each character all ended up in the same tight range. This is obvious really, since it is 1/2 level plus prime ability (which is going to be nearly the same), plus a handful of other similarly regulate bonuses define the amount. Even selecting the weakest of skills, ones for which a character was of minimal ability, the chance of success against an "average" challenge was better than 50/50 and even "very difficult" challenges were around 10% chance of success. People praise page 42. To me the idea that the parameter ranges for correctly balanced can be captured in a single page is deeply undesirable. It has been explained to me that a blackguard in full plate and a pirate in a torn shirt have the same AC because they are appropriate challenges this way. I'd rather they be a pirate and a black guard first and this includes mechanically realizing them appropriate mechanical elements, not starting with the mechanics determined before the npc is defined and working backwards to show horn the skin over the same frame. "The math works" is a stated goal of 4E. And the math *does* work. For good and for bad. The paladin being different than the rogue because we are only talking about the paladin's specialty is true. But so is saying that two 16" pizzas are different because one has a slice of pepperoni sitting in the center and the other has an olive. I'm glad 4E works great for a lot of people. But there are a lot of good reasons to find other approaches preferable. The OP seems to think that the only possible reason is min/maxing, which he has no sympathy for. I have sympathy for not being able to see the other opportunities that are out there. After all, it may be that you would still prefer the total rule of balance, but how do you know if you don't know what the alternatives are? [/QUOTE]
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Can somebody explain the bias against game balance?
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