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<blockquote data-quote="JohnSnow" data-source="post: 3984908" data-attributes="member: 32164">Here's the thing. That's only true if you decide that there's no limit on wizard's power except what they can imagine. That may be your particular preference, but it's not an inherent property of magic.If magic follows rules at all, it can be restricted by any rules that seem reasonable. For example, in Christopher Paolini's Inheritance trilogy, wizards are limited by their strength. Magic lets them do anything they could physically accomplish. If they try to cause a magical effect beyond what they could do physically, they will die from the effort. In the Harry Potter novels, there's all kinds of things magic simply can't do. For example, if time isn't susceptible to magic, then magic users can't travel in time. If death is irreversible, magic can't raise the dead.Wish is a pointlessly open-ended spell. It's &quot;I can do anything.&quot; Simply because people in our world can't do magic, but they can in D&amp;D doesn't mean that they have to be able to do literally anything.I'm very glad that 4e is doing away with the mentality of &quot;wizards über alles.&quot; Because as long as wizards can do anything, you can't make any other class remotely relevant. If you want to play that game, go ahead. It's called Ars Magica.D&amp;D has always run with theory that all classes are equal, or at least &quot;equally valuable.&quot; Fourth Edition will finally make a serious attempt at making that a reality. And if they have to nerf wizards and allow Beowulf-style fighters to make it happen, I say &quot;so be it.&quot;A high-level paragon fighter should be capable of amazing feats - the kinds of things that happen in myths and sagas, not just what's in sword &amp; sorcery novels.Your fantasy wizards who are more powerful than everyone around them are 20th-level PCs in a world full of 6th-10th level ones. That's why they're so 'uber' - it's not just because 'they're wizards.'My opinion.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="JohnSnow, post: 3984908, member: 32164"] Here's the thing. That's only true if you decide that there's no limit on wizard's power [i]except what they can imagine[/i]. That [i]may[/i] be your particular preference, but it's not an inherent property of magic. If magic follows rules at all, it can be restricted by [i]any rules[/i] that seem reasonable. For example, in Christopher Paolini's [i]Inheritance[/i] trilogy, wizards are limited by their strength. Magic lets them do anything they could physically accomplish. If they try to cause a magical effect beyond what they could do physically, they will die from the effort. In the Harry Potter novels, there's all kinds of things magic simply can't do. For example, if time isn't susceptible to magic, then magic users can't travel in time. If death is irreversible, magic can't raise the dead. Wish is a pointlessly open-ended spell. It's "I can do anything." Simply because people in our world can't do magic, but they can in D&D doesn't mean that they have to be able to do literally [i]anything[/i]. I'm very glad that 4e is doing away with the mentality of "wizards über alles." Because as long as wizards can do [i]anything,[/i] you can't make any other class remotely relevant. If you want to play that game, go ahead. It's called [i]Ars Magica.[/i] D&D has always run with theory that all classes are equal, or at least "equally valuable." Fourth Edition will finally make a serious attempt at making that a reality. And if they have to nerf wizards and allow Beowulf-style fighters to make it happen, I say "so be it." A high-level paragon fighter should be capable of amazing feats - the kinds of things that happen in myths and sagas, not just what's in sword & sorcery novels. Your fantasy wizards who are more powerful than everyone around them are 20th-level PCs in a world full of 6th-10th level ones. That's why they're so 'uber' - it's not just because 'they're wizards.' My opinion. [/QUOTE]

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