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can warlocks be good guys?
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<blockquote data-quote="Greg K" data-source="post: 6558409" data-attributes="member: 5038"><p>I am going to disagree with those arguing that Ariel is a good example of a Warlock pact. There are usually two types of pacts made</p><p>. The first is the the type in which the person gets something such as wealth, social power, fame, beauty, youth, an exceptional talent in a skill (e.g, playing an instrument, architecture), gaining a few extra inches below the belt and, after a certain length of time, the demon/devil gets their soul. We see this in various episodes of Supernatural episodes including with Bella, Dean, John, and the episode "Crossroad Blues". Bella made a ten year deal to have her parents killed to end being molested by her father. Dean made a 1 year deal to bring back Sam. John makes a deal to stop Dean's soul from being reaped and live just long enough to say his goodbyes to Sam and Dean. </p><p></p><p> A similar approach is seen in the movie, "Bedazzled" with a few differences. First, the person gets three wishes before their death and then the soul goes to the Devil (you can't wish for more wishes or to have the contract ended). Another difference is that in the Bedazzled approach, all wishes end up being corrupted by the devil and having a serious downside as the devil will play with your wording). </p><p></p><p>In both of the above, pacts do not require loyalty to or serving the entity with whom you made the pact. You get a benefit to be paid for with your soul upon death after a given time has passed or circumstance is met and with no interference (Supernatural) or you get the Devil screwing with you and he still gets your soul (e.g., Bedazzled). In some stories there is a way out of the pact (e.g., in Bedazzled, one's soul is saved if a wish is used for a completely and truly selfless act). </p><p></p><p> Ariel's type of bargain for legs would fall along the above type of pact</p><p></p><p> The second type of pact involves pledging to loyally serve the Devil in exchange for real power (e.g., the ability to do powerful real magic). We see it in many legends and stories about witches gaining magic by "consorting with the Devil" in exchange for being in there service. It is a common theme in 70's occult movies and TV shows (e.g., the "Devi's Platform" episode of Kolchak: The Night Stalker). In these pacts, there is no redemption. You serve your master and the penalty for failing you master or turning on your master is being instantly killed, stripped of powers and killed, stripped of powers and polymorphed into a normal dog with a dog's mind rather replacing your own ("The Devil's Platform"), etc. We even see this type of pact in Supernatural episodes (e.g., the episodes "Malleus Maleficarum" with the book club and "Swap Meat" with Gary's friends require pledging you allegiance to a powerful demon or the Devil). In "Malleus Maleficarum", the book club members pledge their allegiance and learn magic. One gets killed for telling the demon "master" (whom is in the body of a friend) to shut up. Another is killed with a gesture for turning on the "master" and attacking it with a spell). In "Swap Meat, Gary is told that to become a powerful witch he must pledge his allegiance to the Devil and, Sam earlier told Gary's friend's Trevor and Nora that once you cross the line you cannot come back (Gary is smart and doesn't make the pact). In my opinion, this type of pact is the Infernal Warlock- pledge your loyalty to serve a powerful dark entity in exchange of power. Once you do it, you cannot turn back even if you entered with good intentions ("the road to hell is paved with good intentions"). Trying to renege by going against your patron or its wishes just results in you character being dead or otherwise out of the campaign (e.g., stripped of powers and transformed into a normal black cat, black dog or something similar). </p><p></p><p>Now, I might be willing to accept that someone with a change of heart could go to the temple of a powerful good deity for refuge. As long as they stayed there, they would be safe, but they would lose any Warlock powers and be hunted by their patron and its servants as soon as they stepped outside. They might even pick up the cleric or paladin class (I would require them to stay and train for several months). If a PC, I would allow for them to keep their background, training in armor, weapons, and skills and take Level 1 in a new class. I would not, however, allow them to keep their patron granted abilities and I would not grant anything to boost up for the loss of power and the character would still be hunted. However, as I do not allow evil PCs, I still would not allow the PC warlock in the campaign so the idea of the redeemed Warlock would better serve as the starting background for a beginning character (in which case, I would start by sending low powered servants of the former patron).</p><p></p><p>This is my take on infernal warlocks based on the influences I use when campaign building. As such, when I run, a player wanting to play an Infernal Warlock has the choice to accept that there are no PC Infernal Warlocks as they will have to be evil (furthering their patron's goals which are evil) and play something else as I don't allow evil PCs or they find another table. I respect that others may choose to run it differently at their table, but I would not play in a campaign with infernal warlocks as PCs.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Greg K, post: 6558409, member: 5038"] I am going to disagree with those arguing that Ariel is a good example of a Warlock pact. There are usually two types of pacts made . The first is the the type in which the person gets something such as wealth, social power, fame, beauty, youth, an exceptional talent in a skill (e.g, playing an instrument, architecture), gaining a few extra inches below the belt and, after a certain length of time, the demon/devil gets their soul. We see this in various episodes of Supernatural episodes including with Bella, Dean, John, and the episode "Crossroad Blues". Bella made a ten year deal to have her parents killed to end being molested by her father. Dean made a 1 year deal to bring back Sam. John makes a deal to stop Dean's soul from being reaped and live just long enough to say his goodbyes to Sam and Dean. A similar approach is seen in the movie, "Bedazzled" with a few differences. First, the person gets three wishes before their death and then the soul goes to the Devil (you can't wish for more wishes or to have the contract ended). Another difference is that in the Bedazzled approach, all wishes end up being corrupted by the devil and having a serious downside as the devil will play with your wording). In both of the above, pacts do not require loyalty to or serving the entity with whom you made the pact. You get a benefit to be paid for with your soul upon death after a given time has passed or circumstance is met and with no interference (Supernatural) or you get the Devil screwing with you and he still gets your soul (e.g., Bedazzled). In some stories there is a way out of the pact (e.g., in Bedazzled, one's soul is saved if a wish is used for a completely and truly selfless act). Ariel's type of bargain for legs would fall along the above type of pact The second type of pact involves pledging to loyally serve the Devil in exchange for real power (e.g., the ability to do powerful real magic). We see it in many legends and stories about witches gaining magic by "consorting with the Devil" in exchange for being in there service. It is a common theme in 70's occult movies and TV shows (e.g., the "Devi's Platform" episode of Kolchak: The Night Stalker). In these pacts, there is no redemption. You serve your master and the penalty for failing you master or turning on your master is being instantly killed, stripped of powers and killed, stripped of powers and polymorphed into a normal dog with a dog's mind rather replacing your own ("The Devil's Platform"), etc. We even see this type of pact in Supernatural episodes (e.g., the episodes "Malleus Maleficarum" with the book club and "Swap Meat" with Gary's friends require pledging you allegiance to a powerful demon or the Devil). In "Malleus Maleficarum", the book club members pledge their allegiance and learn magic. One gets killed for telling the demon "master" (whom is in the body of a friend) to shut up. Another is killed with a gesture for turning on the "master" and attacking it with a spell). In "Swap Meat, Gary is told that to become a powerful witch he must pledge his allegiance to the Devil and, Sam earlier told Gary's friend's Trevor and Nora that once you cross the line you cannot come back (Gary is smart and doesn't make the pact). In my opinion, this type of pact is the Infernal Warlock- pledge your loyalty to serve a powerful dark entity in exchange of power. Once you do it, you cannot turn back even if you entered with good intentions ("the road to hell is paved with good intentions"). Trying to renege by going against your patron or its wishes just results in you character being dead or otherwise out of the campaign (e.g., stripped of powers and transformed into a normal black cat, black dog or something similar). Now, I might be willing to accept that someone with a change of heart could go to the temple of a powerful good deity for refuge. As long as they stayed there, they would be safe, but they would lose any Warlock powers and be hunted by their patron and its servants as soon as they stepped outside. They might even pick up the cleric or paladin class (I would require them to stay and train for several months). If a PC, I would allow for them to keep their background, training in armor, weapons, and skills and take Level 1 in a new class. I would not, however, allow them to keep their patron granted abilities and I would not grant anything to boost up for the loss of power and the character would still be hunted. However, as I do not allow evil PCs, I still would not allow the PC warlock in the campaign so the idea of the redeemed Warlock would better serve as the starting background for a beginning character (in which case, I would start by sending low powered servants of the former patron). This is my take on infernal warlocks based on the influences I use when campaign building. As such, when I run, a player wanting to play an Infernal Warlock has the choice to accept that there are no PC Infernal Warlocks as they will have to be evil (furthering their patron's goals which are evil) and play something else as I don't allow evil PCs or they find another table. I respect that others may choose to run it differently at their table, but I would not play in a campaign with infernal warlocks as PCs. [/QUOTE]
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