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can we make better dragons?
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<blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 8335936" data-attributes="member: 83242"><p>yes, that was my post</p><p></p><p>I am pretty sure the OP is not asking about mechanics. However,...</p><p></p><p>I personally don't think 4e dragons are that much better than the 5e counter parts, in particular Adult and Ancient 5e dragons with legendary and lair actions. For me, a 5e dragon with its lair actions is more interesting than most 4e dragons. Now, I agree the the 5e stat blocks are too cookie cutter for me an could use the variety they put in the 4e ones. They unfortunately shifted a lot of that to they lair actions (which is why I let dragons use lair actions even if they are not in their lair). There is also the prevalence of push, pull, and other effects and conditions that all 4e monsters seem to have an few 5e ones have. I also think legendary actions and resistance are a better solution for solos than what is in the 4e MM. Now 4e improved on this for dragons when they added "instinctive actions" later in the edition (around MM 3 and the Monster Vault).</p><p></p><p>Similarly, I will note that you chose to post a stat block that was not from the 4e MM, but a latter version after they had redesigned the dragons. If you look at later monster designs in 5e, they tend to be more interesting too.</p><p></p><p>If your curious, here is the black dragon in the 4e MM:</p><p>[ATTACH=full]140244[/ATTACH]</p><p>EDIT: you will note the original MM version does not have: <em>acidic blood, instinctive devouring</em>, or <em>action recovery</em>. Also, <em>zone of darkness</em> is not as interesting (mechanically) as <em>shroud of gloom</em> in the MV version. My point is the design got better when the did it a second time. If and when this happens for 5e, I bet they are similarly improved (though probably not the young dragon so much, more the higher CR ones).</p><p></p><p>EDIT #2: I just want to clarify that I love 4e and ran for its whole run. It is the game that brought me back to D&D. However, in general I am not overly impressed with 4e or 5e dragons in their respective MM. The 4e dragons definitely got better as time when on. If you want to see my take on 5e dragons, check out my <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/5e-updates-monstrous-compendium.672508/post-8004360" target="_blank">5e Monstrous Compendium </a>on this forum. I've updated all of the chromatic dragons and added a few age categories.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="dave2008, post: 8335936, member: 83242"] yes, that was my post I am pretty sure the OP is not asking about mechanics. However,... I personally don't think 4e dragons are that much better than the 5e counter parts, in particular Adult and Ancient 5e dragons with legendary and lair actions. For me, a 5e dragon with its lair actions is more interesting than most 4e dragons. Now, I agree the the 5e stat blocks are too cookie cutter for me an could use the variety they put in the 4e ones. They unfortunately shifted a lot of that to they lair actions (which is why I let dragons use lair actions even if they are not in their lair). There is also the prevalence of push, pull, and other effects and conditions that all 4e monsters seem to have an few 5e ones have. I also think legendary actions and resistance are a better solution for solos than what is in the 4e MM. Now 4e improved on this for dragons when they added "instinctive actions" later in the edition (around MM 3 and the Monster Vault). Similarly, I will note that you chose to post a stat block that was not from the 4e MM, but a latter version after they had redesigned the dragons. If you look at later monster designs in 5e, they tend to be more interesting too. If your curious, here is the black dragon in the 4e MM: [ATTACH type="full" alt="1625931334936.png"]140244[/ATTACH] EDIT: you will note the original MM version does not have: [I]acidic blood, instinctive devouring[/I], or [I]action recovery[/I]. Also, [I]zone of darkness[/I] is not as interesting (mechanically) as [I]shroud of gloom[/I] in the MV version. My point is the design got better when the did it a second time. If and when this happens for 5e, I bet they are similarly improved (though probably not the young dragon so much, more the higher CR ones). EDIT #2: I just want to clarify that I love 4e and ran for its whole run. It is the game that brought me back to D&D. However, in general I am not overly impressed with 4e or 5e dragons in their respective MM. The 4e dragons definitely got better as time when on. If you want to see my take on 5e dragons, check out my [URL='https://www.enworld.org/threads/5e-updates-monstrous-compendium.672508/post-8004360']5e Monstrous Compendium [/URL]on this forum. I've updated all of the chromatic dragons and added a few age categories. [/QUOTE]
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