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Message: <blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 8336129" data-attributes="member: 83242">First I want to point out that I said 4e dragons where better, just not much better IMO. I think they both have strengths and bonuses.OH I agree, they missed a real opportunity there.  That is why, as I mentioned before, I let dragons take lair actions at the cost of 1 legendary action.  IMO that move alone makes 5e dragons at least equivalent to 4e dragons.I personally never use any dragons below Adult and rarely even adult dragons.  For me, Ancient dragons (elder dragons in 4e) are the youngest I typically have dragons in my campaigns.  So when I talk about dragons, I almost always talking about ancient dragons (in 5e). So I completely agree that young dragons in 4e are much more interesting than their 5e equivalent.  However, it is simply not relevant in my games.I was not making an appeal for time.  I was just pointing out that monster designs tend to get better the more the design teams do. It took 4e designers 3 tries (MM1- MM3) to get solos close to what they should have been,  That being said, I think Legendary monsters are even better at being solos than 4e solos.  So that baseline, IME, gives 5e dragons a bit of an edge in play.  Now, are 4e dragons more interesting on the page, absolutely.  Now look at this later dragon from the Ravnica book:Niv-Mizzet[spoiler]Gargantuan dragon , chaotic neutralArmor Class 22 Natural ArmorHit Points 370 (19d20 + 171)Speed 40 ft., climb 30 ft., fly 80 ft.<table style='width: 100%'><tr><td>STR</td><td>DEX</td><td>CON</td><td>INT</td><td>WIS</td><td>CHA</td></tr><tr><td>29 (+9)</td><td>14 (+2)</td><td>29 (+9)</td><td>30 (+10)</td><td>17 (+3)</td><td>25 (+7)</td></tr></table>Saving Throws CON +17, INT +18, WIS +11Skills <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Arcana" target="_blank">Arcana</a> +18, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Insight" target="_blank">Insight</a> +11, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#Perception" target="_blank">Perception</a> +11Damage Resistances Cold, Psychic, ThunderDamage Immunities Fire, LightningCondition Immunities <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/appendix-a-conditions#Charmed" target="_blank">Charmed</a>Senses <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/monsters#Blindsight" target="_blank">Blindsight</a> 60 ft., <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/monsters#Darkvision" target="_blank">Darkvision</a> 120 ft., Passive Perception 21Languages Common, DraconicChallenge 26 (90,000 XP) Proficiency Bonus +8Legendary Resistance (3/Day). If Niv-Mizzet fails a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead.Locus of the Firemind. Niv-Mizzet can maintain concentration on two different spells at the same time. In addition, he has advantage on saving throws to maintain concentration on spells.Magic Resistance. Niv-Mizzet has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.Master Chemister. When Niv-Mizzet casts a spell that deals damage, he can change the spell’s damage to cold, fire, force, lightning, or thunder.Spellcasting. Niv-Mizzet is a 20th-level Izzet spellcaster. His spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 26, +18 to hit with spell attacks). He has the following wizard spells prepared:Cantrips (at will): <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/fire-bolt" target="_blank">fire bolt</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/light" target="_blank">light</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/prestidigitation" target="_blank">prestidigitation</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/ray-of-frost" target="_blank">ray of frost</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/shocking-grasp" target="_blank">shocking grasp</a>1st level (4 slots): <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/detect-magic" target="_blank">detect magic</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/magic-missile" target="_blank">magic missile</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/shield" target="_blank">shield</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/thunderwave" target="_blank">thunderwave</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/unseen-servant" target="_blank">unseen servant</a>2nd level (3 slots): <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/blur" target="_blank">blur</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/enlarge-reduce" target="_blank">enlarge/reduce</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/flaming-sphere" target="_blank">flaming sphere</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/scorching-ray" target="_blank">scorching ray</a>3rd level (3 slots): <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/counterspell" target="_blank">counterspell</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/fireball" target="_blank">fireball</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/hold-person" target="_blank">hold person</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/lightning-bolt" target="_blank">lightning bolt</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/slow" target="_blank">slow</a>4th level (3 slots): <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/confusion" target="_blank">confusion</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/dimension-door" target="_blank">dimension door</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/fabricate" target="_blank">fabricate</a>5th level (2 slots): <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/conjure-elemental" target="_blank">conjure elemental</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/polymorph" target="_blank">polymorph</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/wall-of-fire" target="_blank">wall of fire</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/wall-of-force" target="_blank">wall of force</a>6th level (1 slot): <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/chain-lightning" target="_blank">chain lightning</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/disintegrate" target="_blank">disintegrate</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/true-seeing" target="_blank">true seeing</a>7th level (1 slot): <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/project-image" target="_blank">project image</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/reverse-gravity" target="_blank">reverse gravity</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/teleport" target="_blank">teleport</a>8th level (1 slot): <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/control-weather" target="_blank">control weather</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/maze" target="_blank">maze</a>, <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/power-word-stun" target="_blank">power word stun</a>9th level (1 slot): <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/prismatic-wall" target="_blank">prismatic wall</a>ActionsMultiattack. Niv-Mizzet makes three attacks: one with his bite and two with his claws.Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 18 (2d8 + 9) piercing damage plus 14 (4d6)fire damage.Claw. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 10 ft., one target. Hit: 14 (2d4 + 9) slashing damage.Tail. Melee Weapon Attack: +17 to hit, reach 20 ft., one target. Hit: 16 (2d6 + 9) bludgeoning damage.Fire Breath (Recharge 5–6). Niv-Mizzet exhales fire in a 90-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 25 Dexterity saving throw, taking 91 (26d6) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.Legendary ActionsNiv-Mizzet can take 3 legendary actions, choosing from the options below. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature’s turn. Niv-Mizzet regains spent legendary actions at the start of his turn.Cantrip. Niv-Mizzet casts one of his cantrips.Tail Attack. Niv-Mizzet makes a tail attack.Wing Attack (Costs 2 Actions). Niv-Mizzet beats his wings. Each creature within 15 feet of him must succeed on a DC 25 Dexterity saving throw or take 14 (2d4 + 9)bludgeoning damage and be knocked <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/appendix-a-conditions#Prone" target="_blank">prone</a>. Niv-Mizzet can then fly up to half his flying speed.Dracogenius (Costs 3 Actions). Niv-Mizzet regains a spell slot of 3rd level or lower.[/spoiler]This is better in but still not all they could be IMO.  If you checked out my dragons you an see I pushed them quite a bit farther. I had few issues with 4e dragons (and solos in general).<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Ongoing damage (and to a lesser extent conditions).  When I played 4e I often forgot about ongoing damage and my players sure didn't remind me <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Now that is on me, but it became such a hassle I eventually dropped it from all my monsters and just upped the damage.  I think 5e was wise to mostly drop it too. Which brings me too...</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">High level dragons did to little damage. This is also an issue with 5e, but it was worse in 4e. I eventually found a blog that reworked the 4e expected damage per level tables to make lvl 30 match lvl 1.  That helped a lot.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">No spells.  I didn't mind this at first because of the unique abilities they have, but eventually I wanted a bit more.  I like that 5e dragons have a spell casting variant RAW, though I do wish they had provided a sample spell list.</li> </ol></blockquote>

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