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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8340141" data-attributes="member: 71699">There may be two kinds of narrative control here. The first is the declaration that sets the scene in motion. Our narrative now contains a fight.A second may be the details of the fight itself - the character takes this action, and then that action, and then this other action. Declaring the attack isn't stochastic. Those other actions often will be.There may be two kinds narrative control here. Given what is described to happen in the mind of characters is properly part of a narrative (say when Sam feels hope on seeing a star) then the first part - describing a hope or desire to meet my brother - is a kind of narrative control.Inspired by the hope, the player declares their character searching for their brother. I think this is the same as the attack declaration above: it sets the scene in motion, in a specific direction.Another is bringing it about the meeting itself, which you have described as stochastic. That then is the same as actions in the fight.A third is that I think there will be narration of the world this all occurs in - the brother is in the nave of the church of Torm. There is a church, there is a god, Torm, with worshippers, and so on. That was also true of the fight above.This again seems to divide into the three kinds of narrative control. Declaration, stochastic action, the space it occurs in.I believe all three cases presented include the same three kinds of narrative control: framing, details of resolution, architectural details (what I have called world). I suspect inhabitants are also included in world.A possible razor for identifying these kinds as narrative control, is if, given an identical preceding narrative, a player A might be predicted to produce a different narrative from a player B. Supposing our dutiful scribe writes it out exactly as it is played. It is control if there are differences and A and B were able to choose those differences.The PCs might choose where in the space they declare themselves to be going, but not what is there. The DM controls the world included in the narrative.One though about that: over time a campaign world will often become shaped by all the declarations and actions of players, so that it stops being the narrative of world that would have been if DM alone had created it, and becomes a world that could only exist given player interaction. Is that a form of narrative control?This is a great point. For me it speaks to arguments you have made elsewhere as to the value of including principles and guidance, as well as rules. I recollect an Angry GM (I think it was) blog on Dungeon World that said something like - it has a view of best-practice and forms that into its rules, so that you can't help perform some best-practices just in playing it.I sometimes read posters speculating the D&D can or can't do X kind of play. It seems there is this assumption<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">There are ways of play (Xs)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">There are ways of enjoying play (what counts as good, given X)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">For each combination of 1. and 2., there must be a set of best practices (resulting in a lot of possible best practices)</li> </ol>One take away might be that although Xs might be very diverse, and may be successfully hybridised in all kinds of ways, once you can decide on your X and Y, you can locate a set of best practices. You refer to a third-type of action declaration. Can you say anything more about what is distinct about it? By my count we have the following kinds of narrative control<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Declarations that choose which scenes our narrative will contain.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Actions, often stochastic, which narrate how the scene plays out.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Settting, or world, that defines what can be included in narration. (Typically defining at least the architecture and inhabitants.)</li> </ol>Regarding actions, a sliding scale is in play for power of fiat over the narrative that they afford to players. Spells in D&D are an example of absolute fiat. I have a light cantrip. Whether others agree or not, I am empowered to make a tightly defined change to the setting. Skills are less absolute. I have Sleight of Hand. If I am able to make a declaration that evokes Sleight of Hand, I have a chance of imposing a change on the narrative that I will have described from what is loosely said to be covered by the skill. It's an interesting nuance (and there are other cases), but for the moment I believe they can all come under 'actions'.Regarding setting, players do add their characters to the inhabitants of the world. Players get to say - the setting contains a dragonborn warlock who was once a sailor, and goes by the name 'Fang'. Is characters is another kind of narrative control?</blockquote>

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