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<blockquote data-quote="Magus_Jerel" data-source="post: 145292" data-attributes="member: 3940">Apply logic.&nbsp; Perhaps it is better to explain what I am stating by forcing the logic behind it into a &quot;systems of equations&quot; format from old high school algebra so that people unfamiliar with pure logical forms will not be confused by technical jargon.Standard A = MEA + Partial A&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - given definition standard actionStandard A = MEA + MEA&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - given definition Double MoveTherefore -MEA + Partial A = MEA + MEA&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - by substitutionPartial A = MEA&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - by eliminationStandard A = Partial A + Partial A&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; - by substitutionTo state that &quot;a standard action is not two partial actions&quot; goes nowhere fast.&nbsp; How do you defeat the above logical and reasoned thought process? - you don't ... trust me you don't.Goeff Watson -Thx for proof of concept on point 1 and 2 ...on point three - the word is aware of - not that joe is made alert... sorry - I presumed joe was awake and coherent.... sheesh.on point 4 - please kindly try to define &quot;take an action&quot;.I can duck - right?My shield can block my opponent's blow as I &quot;move it&quot; there?I make saves?I might be able to drop a weapon if it all of a sudden got really hot - right?These are &quot;actions taken&quot; - from a passive sense.evidently - you say &quot;no&quot; to the possiblilty of passive actions... and therefore indicate that combat is like chess... where everyone &quot;takes their turn&quot; and bops the other guy on the head.graydoom - I understand your argument concerning three and four.It would seem that to take a free action - you have to have the initiative, whereas the &quot;not an action&quot; category you can &quot;do&quot; or be made to do wether or not it is &quot;your turn&quot;.&nbsp; However, logic similar to the point above also exists concerning free actions and not an action.&nbsp; It is however, not so easily &quot;converted&quot; into a systems of equations format - it requires the application of quantum principles.As far as &quot;taking actions when it isn't your turn&quot; - there is a bit of debate on the difference between &quot;free action&quot; and &quot;not an action&quot;.&nbsp; it would appear to sbe that you have to have initiative to use the former, but you could do the latter when you don't have the initiative.&nbsp; I have seen some WILD and completely irrational arguments on this one. However, the logic trap on &quot;taking a free action when it is not your turn&quot; is the following situation:A nasty little kobold sets off a pit trap under a wizard in combat.Said wizard has a feather fall spell memorized.Can said wizard use said spell - a free action by definition even if it is not his action - and doesn't have the initiative?&nbsp; There are three possible answers:1. If you answer no - you get shot down by the nature, purpose and intent of the spell.2. If you answer yes - then you can cast a spell as a free action when &quot;it isn't your turn&quot; - but not initiate one.&nbsp; Ie - you could only do such a thing as a reaction to someone else's action.3. If you say &quot;you can only use feather fall this way&quot; - you get shot for inconsistency.Considering that the first and third can be argued aganst rationally, while the second (although complicated in defense) cannot be - I have to go with the second.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Magus_Jerel, post: 145292, member: 3940"] Apply logic. Perhaps it is better to explain what I am stating by forcing the logic behind it into a "systems of equations" format from old high school algebra so that people unfamiliar with pure logical forms will not be confused by technical jargon. Standard A = MEA + Partial A - given definition standard action Standard A = MEA + MEA - given definition Double Move Therefore - MEA + Partial A = MEA + MEA - by substitution Partial A = MEA - by elimination Standard A = Partial A + Partial A - by substitution To state that "a standard action is not two partial actions" goes nowhere fast. How do you defeat the above logical and reasoned thought process? - you don't ... trust me you don't. Goeff Watson - Thx for proof of concept on point 1 and 2 ... on point three - the word is aware of - not that joe is made alert... sorry - I presumed joe was awake and coherent.... sheesh. on point 4 - please kindly try to define "take an action". I can duck - right? My shield can block my opponent's blow as I "move it" there? I make saves? I might be able to drop a weapon if it all of a sudden got really hot - right? These are "actions taken" - from a passive sense. evidently - you say "no" to the possiblilty of passive actions... and therefore indicate that combat is like chess... where everyone "takes their turn" and bops the other guy on the head. graydoom - I understand your argument concerning three and four. It would seem that to take a free action - you have to have the initiative, whereas the "not an action" category you can "do" or be made to do wether or not it is "your turn". However, logic similar to the point above also exists concerning free actions and not an action. It is however, not so easily "converted" into a systems of equations format - it requires the application of quantum principles. As far as "taking actions when it isn't your turn" - there is a bit of debate on the difference between "free action" and "not an action". it would appear to sbe that you have to have initiative to use the former, but you could do the latter when you don't have the initiative. I have seen some WILD and completely irrational arguments on this one. However, the logic trap on "taking a free action when it is not your turn" is the following situation: A nasty little kobold sets off a pit trap under a wizard in combat. Said wizard has a feather fall spell memorized. Can said wizard use said spell - a free action by definition even if it is not his action - and doesn't have the initiative? There are three possible answers: 1. If you answer no - you get shot down by the nature, purpose and intent of the spell. 2. If you answer yes - then you can cast a spell as a free action when "it isn't your turn" - but not initiate one. Ie - you could only do such a thing as a reaction to someone else's action. 3. If you say "you can only use feather fall this way" - you get shot for inconsistency. Considering that the first and third can be argued aganst rationally, while the second (although complicated in defense) cannot be - I have to go with the second. [/QUOTE]

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