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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elvinis75" data-source="post: 1240408" data-attributes="member: 4379">I would think that is a slippery slope that you are walking Hyper.So a person doesn’t have to take any attack to use power attack?  That seems to fly both in the face of the rules and logic.  The feat states: Benefit: On the character's action, before making attack rolls for a round, the character may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed the character's base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage applies until the character's next action. The part after the first comma implies that the character is going to make attack rolls that round.  Hence the word “making” not the phase “decides to make” or “chooses to make”.  Nor does it read before making any action.  This is to me is clear that to use power attack you must make a attack roll, to clarify the feats text should be changed to match that of expertise.  Can you use power attack or expertise if you can’t attack?  Think that these two feats are two sides to the same coin.  It is clear that you can’t use expertise if you CDG as you are not taking the attack or full attack action, it is equally clear that CDG is not a melee attack roll.  If you don’t “make” an attack roll you are not following the letter of the feat.  I would further say that you can’t cleave as it says that you use the same attack bonus as the “attack” that it follows.  One part of the equation is not defined.  There was no attack roll.  That is not the same as zero.  It can be proved that it can’t be zero in at least one instance therefore the statement is not true.  Take for example if the character has a Total attack bonus of 0.  The person they are laying the CDG on has an AC of 25.  Saying that the attack roll was zero would mean that the character would not have hit the person on the ground.  In short, I’m a computer person and can tell you for a fact that a null does not equal 0.  So that sort of number smithing cannot be justified.  To cleave you have to have made a previous attack that you can base it off.  Since CDG has no attack bonus it is impossible to accurately define the cleave.  So even if the rules allow a cleave off a CDG, IMHO they don’t, there is no way to fairly adjudicate that attack.</blockquote>

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