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<blockquote data-quote="TuDogz" data-source="post: 1240593" data-attributes="member: 9889">Wow.&nbsp; Who woulda thought this question could build this many posts.&nbsp; Hyp, while I frequently agree with you, today you are whacked outta your mind.Exhibit A___________________CLEAVE [GENERAL]Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.Special: A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats.___________________The criteria for activation is &quot;to make it drop&quot;.The reward an &quot;extra melee attack&quot;.Exhibit B______________________SPECIAL ATTACKSTable: Special AttacksSpecial Attack&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Brief DescriptionAid another&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Grant an ally a +2 bonus on attacks or ACBull rush&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Push an opponent back 5 feet or moreCharge&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Move up to twice your speed and attack with +2 bonusDisarm&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Knock a weapon from your opponent’s handsFeint&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Negate your opponent’s Dex bonus to ACGrapple&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Wrestle with an opponentOverrun&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Plow past or over an opponent as you moveSunder&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Strike an opponent’s weapon or shieldThrow splash weapon&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Throw container of dangerous liquid at targetTrip&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Trip an opponentTurn (rebuke) undead&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Channel positive (or negative) energy to turn away (or awe) undeadTwo-weapon fighting&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fight with a weapon in each hand___________________Note that Coup de Grace is not on the list of special attacks.Exhibit C________________________HELPLESS DEFENDERSA helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks.A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace)._________________________Coup de Grace is not an attack but a full round action that automatically deals damage.Therefore, whether or not the opponent drops, there was no initial melee attack to which the extra attack can be awarded.The player in this case was trying to get the guaranteed kill and the extra swing.&nbsp; If he wanted to cleave, he should have opted for the &quot;regular attack&quot; on a helpless opponent which should have dropped him (since he was held and unable to maintain balance) and taken the cleave. While I understand the cinematic capacity to justify the manuver as it was played, it is not in the spirit or the letter of the rules under which coup de grace apply.&nbsp; It would also be a very bad precedent to set for long term game play.&nbsp; The rules surrounding coup de grace intentially make it difficult and time consuming to accomplish.&nbsp; Game balance requires it or TPKs would run rampant and players would use the &quot;hold-CGD&quot; gambit in mid combat unceasingly.&nbsp; At least mine would.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="TuDogz, post: 1240593, member: 9889"] Wow. Who woulda thought this question could build this many posts. Hyp, while I frequently agree with you, today you are whacked outta your mind. Exhibit A ___________________ CLEAVE [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack. Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round. Special: A fighter may select Cleave as one of his fighter bonus feats. ___________________ The criteria for activation is "to make it drop". The reward an "extra melee attack". Exhibit B ______________________ SPECIAL ATTACKS Table: Special Attacks Special Attack Brief Description Aid another Grant an ally a +2 bonus on attacks or AC Bull rush Push an opponent back 5 feet or more Charge Move up to twice your speed and attack with +2 bonus Disarm Knock a weapon from your opponent’s hands Feint Negate your opponent’s Dex bonus to AC Grapple Wrestle with an opponent Overrun Plow past or over an opponent as you move Sunder Strike an opponent’s weapon or shield Throw splash weapon Throw container of dangerous liquid at target Trip Trip an opponent Turn (rebuke) undead Channel positive (or negative) energy to turn away (or awe) undead Two-weapon fighting Fight with a weapon in each hand ___________________ Note that Coup de Grace is not on the list of special attacks. Exhibit C ________________________ HELPLESS DEFENDERS A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy. Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him). Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace). _________________________ Coup de Grace is not an attack but a full round action that automatically deals damage. Therefore, whether or not the opponent drops, there was no initial melee attack to which the extra attack can be awarded. The player in this case was trying to get the guaranteed kill and the extra swing. If he wanted to cleave, he should have opted for the "regular attack" on a helpless opponent which should have dropped him (since he was held and unable to maintain balance) and taken the cleave. While I understand the cinematic capacity to justify the manuver as it was played, it is not in the spirit or the letter of the rules under which coup de grace apply. It would also be a very bad precedent to set for long term game play. The rules surrounding coup de grace intentially make it difficult and time consuming to accomplish. Game balance requires it or TPKs would run rampant and players would use the "hold-CGD" gambit in mid combat unceasingly. At least mine would. [/QUOTE]

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