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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Altamont Ravenard" data-source="post: 1240727" data-attributes="member: 14700">One thing that wasn'T considered, and that MIGHT have some bearing on the discussion (pushing it deeper into the meanders of madness) it the following phrase, from the Cleave feat:What would be the definition of making someone drop? Typically, it's reducing your opponent to 0 hit points or less, but that isn't all-inclusive.Would knocking someone (subdual damage) out permit a Cleave? Would hitting someone who Feigns death permit a Cleave? Would killing an unconscious creature give you a Cleave attempt (assuming you delivered a normal attack in the first place, and not a CDG)? Would killing someone by poisoning him with a Dagger of Venom induce a Cleave attempt?IMO, someone who's helpless has already been "dropped", and can't be "dropped" once more (that's why, as much as I hate not agreeing with Hyp, I can't in this particular matter). Of course, I can't prove by the rules what being "dropped" means, because it simply doesn't appear in them (I'm assuming that no FAQ entry has given a clear definition of what "dropping" someone means).There is a clear problem with the definition of Cleave. First of all, it doesn't mention that you need to cause damage by a melee attack in order to initiate the free, extra melee attack that the feat grants. Then, there is the problem of the definition of "dropping" someone. Moreover, it could be argued (since it appears in the feat) that you get an extra attack when you reduce an opponent below 0 hit points AND when you actually kill your opponent (is the "or" inclusive or exclusive?).IMHO, the intent of the feat was that when you make an actual melee attack and reduce your opponent to 0 hp (for undead and constructs) or less (other living creatures), you get an immediate, extra attack, using the same modifiers that came into play when you made your "killing blow".AR</blockquote>

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