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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Skallgrim" data-source="post: 4740431" data-attributes="member: 79271">There are two specific things I wanted to point outThe first one of these is something that "we"' don't all agree on.  Many of us, I suspect, run campaigns where it is eminently clear that 1) Spending surges willy-nilly is careless and reckless in the extreme.and 2) Sometime you CANNOT succeed if you stop to take an extended rest.Even if you and I both agree that, ideally, you don't press on for the day as soon as a character becomes unhealable (and we don't, because my group has done so), it doesn't naturally follow that a character should seek to become unhealable as quickly as possible to end the day.  I still can't see any fundamental difference between a group that runs into a combat and uses ALL of their healing surges in one fight (how do they even DO that?) and a group that runs into a combat and uses all of their daily powers.  Either they NEEDED to do that (in which case you were giving them a really epic fight and they SHOULD be able to rest afterward), or they didn't need to do that, and they spent their daily resources unwisely.  I don't see any fundamental difference between healing surges and daily powers in this respect, except that you can use all of your daily powers MORE easily, in that you don't need a party of multiclassed healers to allow it.  If anything, the "nova combat" should be more of an issue than depleting healing, considering that it is much easier to achieve.  Yet, I have heard very few complaints about groups that choose to unload all of their dailies in fight one, and then expect the DM to let them sleep overnight before fight two.Second, you point out that your group saw how spending a lot of healing surges could "cushion" their existence, and saw that the ONLY drawback was a need to rest more often.  To me, you've put the entire conflict in a nutshelll right there.  If, in your game, the ONLY drawback to this strategy is a need to rest more often, then OF COURSE this is the good strategy.  Your players have already seen it.There have been tons of posters suggesting precisely that this should not be the ONLY drawback to this stragegy.  They've offered many of the drawbacks which could apply:rest interrupted by random encountersrest interrupted by the next encountertime pressure to complete adventure successfully (enemies achieve goals)time pressure to complete adventure easily (monsters reinforce)time pressure to complete adventure at all (enemies retreat)no appropriate place to restYou yourself are pointing out exactly the problem.  The ONLY drawback the players are affected by is a need to rest more often.  You've CHOSEN to make this the only drawback to their strategy.  If there's NO drawback to taking an extended rest between encounters, then I think EVERY group would do it, every time, and use all of their daily powers in each and every encounter.  Why not?I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just pointing out that you are experiencing the consequence of your own DM choices.  If you choose to make it possible to take an extended rest and recover all healing surges and daily powers after each encounter, then you've chosen to run a game where each encounter needs to be really epic and challenging, where the adventurers NEED those daily powers and surges.  That's a valid playstyle, and often, I switch between them, myself.  A party can have fun with a major altercation if they know it is the only fight of the day.I just can't see any unique problem with healing surges here.  Suppose another group decides to all play Barbarians.  Their damage output goes through the roof, and they have no control ability, and no healing.  That doesn't indicate that there's a problem with the game, or with AC, or with minions.  It indicates that the group has chosen an extreme edge-case build, and is probably going to find some encounters very easy, and others really hard.  As a DM, you could suggest they change their party composition, or change the opposition they face, or just let them live with their choices and take their lumps.  I don't think that claiming WOTC screwed up their design of 4e because they LET you choose to all be barbarians would be a fair option to pick.</blockquote>

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