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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Doctor Bomb" data-source="post: 1644923" data-attributes="member: 8300">OK.So, as far as I can see, we have about three different discussions here.1) Do Cleave and Great Cleave "stack";and as a side-note:2) The definition of immediate as it relates to game-actions;and starting it all,3) Cleave, Great Cleave, free actions, and iterative attacks.RE: Item 1 and the quotes: If the rules aren't clear, and the player wants to play that way, and if the DM allows it (as inferred in the post that started this discussion) then you have to go with what works - you CAN make two immediate attacks, one from Cleave, and one from Great Cleave, against the same opponent (or against different opponents, IF you are wielding a weapon in each hand.) That's not going to happen in my campaign, due to the SICK damage potential of a sneak attacking fighter/rogue dual-wielding keened shortswords.IF the DM is going to allow that, expect the DM to use that against the players as well. MORE PC DEATHS IS GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT!!RE: Item 2: The ability to interrupt an immediate attack with an attack of opportunity, or as in the case of an awakened wolf (takes the Cleave feat) or a well-thought out monk, to trip and immediately make an attack and still have ALL of your attacks left (the foe is, technically, "down") does kind of stretch the boundary of what ought to be able to happen in six seconds. Again, if the DM wants to let multiple immediate actions happen at the same time, then Cleave and Great Cleave abilities will stack in that campaign. Otherwise, as has been posted before, the majority of us are going to go with the spirit of the thing, to enhance our enjoyment of the game. YMMV.RE: Item 3: Being a powergamer DM (he, he, I gotta write me up some stats on that half-clay golem tarrasque, ...) I saw that free action loophole the first run through 3.0, and house-ruled that in my campaigns, you get free actions=Dex bonus. That rules out the SLOW characters from pulling one of those "throw everything I have at him" attacks from the post that started this discussion. It also gives the DM an easier way to SHOW the characters how dangerous a Kelvezu Tanar'ri from MMII is (Dex 31 - with the right feats and equipment - yeah, he killed half the party the first round). Sneak attacks are kewl. Attack #1, drop the first opponent, Cleave and Great Cleave the second opponent, drop the second opponent, Great Cleave the third opponent - still standing.Attack #2, drop the third opponent, Great Cleave the fourth opponent, etc.As for the dropping weapons and quick drawing, and using a ranged attack at the end (why not early on, with the Axe? MORE DAMAGE!!) whatever the DM allows is kewl, but yes, his attack bonuses were off, due to the reasons posted earlier (something about -2 to all attacks...) In conclusion, my wife is right. The fact that I read this thread and responded proves that I AM a geek!!</blockquote>

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