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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 9700150" data-attributes="member: 6877472">Well, yeah.&nbsp; If there's no consequences, there shouldn't be a roll.&nbsp; A locked door doesn't really impose a barrier to a party of PC's.&nbsp; It might cost them a few rounds of time.&nbsp; It might make noise that attracts monsters.But saying &quot;welp, you tried to open, so you can't try again&quot; doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Certainly, you can have a door that the party can't open.&nbsp; Throw an Arcane Lock on it.&nbsp; Now you have to use Dispel Magic, Knock, or, what my parties tend to do, attack the doorframe/wall or try and destroy the door itself.Because this logic breaks down in other areas of the game.&nbsp; Last session, the Sorcerer in my game was stuck in a Web.&nbsp; On his turn he tried to break free, but with his 9 Strength, he failed.&nbsp; If the check was &quot;one and done&quot;, he could never break free from the Web.The problem for me is, the entire exploration tier of the game is basically &quot;roll dice&quot;, often for things that shouldn't require die rolls in the first place, or have much higher DC's than is reasonable.&nbsp; Like, say you're in a forest and the DM says &quot;alright everyone, make Survival checks to navigate the forest without getting lost, DC 15&quot;.Right off the bat, normal people probably don't have +5 to Survival.&nbsp; Even if they did, like a Tier 1 PC, that's still a 50% chance to get lost in these woods.&nbsp; And if the check cannot be repeated, then what?&nbsp; You're lost in the woods forever?A lot of people complain about D&amp;D being not being enough of a simulation and being too much of a &quot;game&quot;.&nbsp; And you know, I get that.&nbsp; And if you're ok with it being a game, and you want to impose &quot;gamist&quot; barriers like &quot;insurmountable waist high fences&quot; or &quot;impassable mountains&quot;- as long as your group is fine with that, have at it.&nbsp; But too often, I run into DM's who seem to want it both ways.&nbsp; They want to impose &quot;reality&quot; on anything the PC's do that &quot;doesn't make sense&quot;, but when it's their scenarios, they are happy to impose things that don't make sense on the PC's.-Having written all of that, I have a guess as to what the disconnect is.&nbsp; Ability checks are boring.&nbsp; &quot;You enter a room&quot;.&nbsp; &quot;I roll Perception.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;You see a door.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;I roll Investigation to see if there's a trap.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;The door is locked.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;I make a Thieves' Tools check to open the lock.&quot;There's no creativity, no excitement.&nbsp; A savvy player might optimize a check into the stratosphere so that they just bypass any challenge involving it.&nbsp; Because why wouldn't they? It's not like it doesn't make sense for someone who has decided their career is to go into dangerous places filled with monsters in an attempt to find some kind of reward!Forcing the players to cycle through options or attempt to &quot;MacGyver&quot; their way around making a check in the first place probably seems a lot more fun.So maybe we're ending up in the same place- I try to avoid senseless checks so the adventure proceeds apace, others force the players to use their noggin's, instead of just rolling dice.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 9700150, member: 6877472"] Well, yeah. If there's no consequences, there shouldn't be a roll. A locked door doesn't really impose a barrier to a party of PC's. It might cost them a few rounds of time. It might make noise that attracts monsters. But saying "welp, you tried to open, so you can't try again" doesn't make a lot of sense to [B]me[/B]. Certainly, you can have a door that the party can't open. Throw an Arcane Lock on it. Now you have to use Dispel Magic, Knock, or, what my parties tend to do, attack the doorframe/wall or try and destroy the door itself. Because this logic breaks down in other areas of the game. Last session, the Sorcerer in my game was stuck in a Web. On his turn he tried to break free, but with his 9 Strength, he failed. If the check was "one and done", he could never break free from the Web. The problem for me is, the entire exploration tier of the game is basically "roll dice", often for things that shouldn't require die rolls in the first place, or have much higher DC's than is reasonable. Like, say you're in a forest and the DM says "alright everyone, make Survival checks to navigate the forest without getting lost, DC 15". Right off the bat, normal people probably don't have +5 to Survival. Even if they did, like a Tier 1 PC, that's still a 50% chance to get lost in these woods. And if the check cannot be repeated, then what? You're lost in the woods forever? A lot of people complain about D&D being not being enough of a simulation and being too much of a "game". And you know, I get that. And if you're ok with it being a game, and you want to impose "gamist" barriers like "insurmountable waist high fences" or "impassable mountains"- as long as your group is fine with that, have at it. But too often, I run into DM's who seem to want it both ways. They want to impose "reality" on anything the PC's do that "doesn't make sense", but when it's their scenarios, they are happy to impose things that don't make sense on the PC's. - Having written all of that, I have a guess as to what the disconnect is. Ability checks are [B]boring[/B]. "You enter a room". "I roll Perception." "You see a door." "I roll Investigation to see if there's a trap." "The door is locked." "I make a Thieves' Tools check to open the lock." There's no creativity, no excitement. A savvy player might optimize a check into the stratosphere so that they just bypass any challenge involving it. Because why wouldn't they? It's not like it doesn't make sense for someone who has decided their career is to go into dangerous places filled with monsters in an attempt to find some kind of reward! Forcing the players to cycle through options or attempt to "MacGyver" their way around making a check in the first place probably seems a lot more fun. So maybe we're ending up in the same place- I try to avoid senseless checks so the adventure proceeds apace, others force the players to use their noggin's, instead of just rolling dice. [/QUOTE]

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