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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hypersmurf" data-source="post: 3325652" data-attributes="member: 1656">Hang on... you only need to make a Spot check to see someone who is hiding.  Someone who isn't hiding is in plain sight.So the default condition is that you can be seen; failing a Hide check leaves you no worse off than not attempting to hide at all, which is how I define "No penalty for failure".Let's say I'm trapped on a ledge in a canyon.  There's a rope some distance up that I could use to escape, and there's a path across the canyon that I could walk up.  Either way requires a Jump check.If I don't try to jump, I stay on the ledge.If I try to jump up to grab the rope and fail, I wind up back on the ledge.  I'm no worse off than if I hadn't attempted the jump in the first place; there is no penalty for failure.  Take 20 not a problem.If I try to jump across the canyon and fail, I fall to a grisly death on the rocks below.  I'm in a worse position than if I hadn't attempted the jump at all; there is a penalty for failure, and I cannot Take 20.If there's a goblin coming and I don't attempt to hide, the goblin sees me.  If I attempt to hide and fail, the goblin sees me.  I'm no worse off for having tried and failed; there is no penalty for failure.Okay.  Now, you earlier said:"If your opponents were trying to Spot you and willing to let you keep trying to Hide until they failed to see you, then you could take 20."So, let's say that before the enemy comes close, you have your buddy try to spot you.  He is willing to let you keep trying to Hide until he fails to see you.Once you stop making rolls, that's the result used for your Hide check until you move or take a move action to Hide again.So, when you Take 20, per the rules for Taking 20, you fail repeatedly (meaning your friend will automatically Spot you) until the end of the duration - twenty times longer than a single skill check would take - at which point your result is calculated as if you had rolled a 20.Let's say I have a Hide score of +25 and my buddy has a Spot of +2.  If I attempt to hide from him as a move action, then even if I roll a 1 and he rolls a 20, my 26 beats his 22.  If, however, I Take 20 to try to hide from him, I fail repeatedly - he spots me every time, until I get to the end of my Taking 20, at which point my Hide check is calculated as 45.Now my buddy goes away, and I remain where I am until the opponent shows up... and makes a Spot check opposed by my 45.Based on your two statements - the existing Hide roll opposes all the spotters until I move, and if someone lets me keep trying to Hide I can Take 20 - do you see any problems with the process?-Hyp.</blockquote>

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