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Message: <blockquote data-quote="airwalkrr" data-source="post: 3328482" data-attributes="member: 12460">That sounds too much like a meta reason to me. I would agree with the technicality of your statements, but I disagree that the spirit of the rule mandates it work that way.The take 20 rule is founded on the principle that you can try a task until you succeed. The fact that it takes 20 times longer is based on the statistical likelihood that you will make at least one roll of a 20 on a d20 if you roll 20 times. This is useful when the player is trying to open a lock because the player need not waste time rolling the d20 until he succeeds. He simply tells the DM he tries until he gets the maximum roll rather than rolling, adding the numbers, and telling the DM his result until he gets the maximum roll.I also believe that it is implied in the rules for taking 20 that situations allowing you to take 20 are unconditional. Hence, you shouldn't be able to take 20 on Hide when an ally is trying to Spot you, but not when you are all by yourself. You can either take 20 or you cannot. Having someone help you might grant a +2 bonus to aid your check, but it is not listed as one of the conditions allowing one to take 20. Fulfilling those conditions is all that is necessary.In the case of Hide, there is a penalty for failure. The penalty is that you are seen. Because there is a penalty for failure, you cannot take 20. You cannot fail multiple times before succeeding against your ally and not against the enemy who comes into the room later. Because the Hide DC is based on the Spot check of any who might see you, the conditions for the Hide check are variable, and therefore not testable until they occur. So I cannot test my Hide check out against anyone who might see me and then try again without some penalty for failure (being noticed).Finally, and I think it bears mentioning even though ENWorlders seem loathe to admit it, balance is a good reason not to allow taking 20 on Hide. Otherwise, DMs would be able to catch PCs by surprise all the time and PCs would rarely benefit since PCs often go looking for monsters, but rarely the other way around. I do not know any DMs who even occassionally allow monsters to take 20 on Hide checks so this is a good indicator that it was not intended to be possible. It certainly isn't concrete evidence, but it is still evidence and it is worth considering.To conclude, it is enough of a logistical nightmare to try to conceive of corner cases where taking 20 on Hide should be allowed to rule that it simply is not possible. The rules are not as clear as they could be on the subject, but the description of the Hide skill strongly suggests that while retrying a check is possible, it is usually fruitless, meaning they did not intend for people to be able to retry until the got a 20 (hence taking 20).</blockquote>

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