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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hypersmurf" data-source="post: 3331067" data-attributes="member: 1656">I disagree emphatically.That's like saying that in the case of Open Lock, there is a penalty for failure.  The penalty is that you do not open the lock.  Because there is a penalty for failure, you cannot take 20.In the case of Search, there is a penalty for failure.  The penalty is that you do not find a trap.  Because there is a penalty for failure, you cannot take 20.I can't agree with that in the case of Hide, Open Lock, or Search.The result of failing an Open Lock check is the same as not attempting an Open Lock check.  There is no penalty for failure.The result of failing an Search check is the same as not attempting an Search check.  There is no penalty for failure.The result of not attempting a Disable Device check is that the device is not disabled.  The result of failing a Disable Device check might be springing a trap and dying horribly.  The failure effect is worse than the no-attempt effect; a penalty for failure.The result of not attempting a Craft check is that the item is not constructed.  The result of failing a Craft check might be the loss of raw materials.  The failure effect is worse than the no-attempt effect; a penalty for failure.The result of not attempting a Hide check is that you are in plain sight.  The result of failing a Hide check is that you are in plain sight.  The failure effect is no worse than the no-attempt effect; there is no penalty for failure.-Hyp.</blockquote>

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