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Message: <blockquote data-quote="airwalkrr" data-source="post: 3332438" data-attributes="member: 12460">That is a very harsh reading of the term <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/penalty" target="_blank">penalty</a>. If that were my argument, then no one can ever take 20. But my argument is based on a different definition of the term "penalty." If you were only able to try to pick each lock once, then there would be a penalty for failure. But you do not suffer any form of punishment if you fail to pick the lock. The default condition of the lock not being picked remains. You are not worse off than when you had started trying to pick the lock just because you fail.This is the same case as Open Lock. You are not worse off for not having found the trap. If failure to Search for a trap meant you set the trap off, that would be a penalty. But just because I fail to find a trap does not mean I set it off. In fact, I could decide to go another way. You can use Search from 10 feet away. So if I am searching for traps and just standing in one place, I can search all squares within 10 feet of me and suffer no consequences for failing a Search check. I suffer consequences only if I trigger a trap, which the skill check itself has nothing to do with.You cannot take 20 on Disable Device because you might accidentally set the trap off if you fail. That is a penalty. Failing to disable the trap is not a penalty. Failing to disable the trap and setting it off accidentally is!Failing to make progress on the item is not the penalty in question. Ruining half of the raw materials is!You cannot use the same criteria to define an opposed check like Hide to define something with a static DC like Open Lock or Craft. Of course, this also depends on your definition of penalty, which I suppose is where we differ. The way I see it, once you attempt a Hide check, that sets the default conditions. I am now hidden; that is the default condition until I do something to make me unhidden. If someone succeeds on a Spot check to see me, I fail to Hide and am worse off than if I had remained hidden. If I succeed, I am simply still hidden, maintaining the default condition.</blockquote>

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