Can you trip someone standing up?

[Ottergame]

The skill doesn't say that it's limited to only those uses. The words "such actions include" do not suggest that they are the only things used by the skill, only as list of examples.

 

[Thanee]

AoO's do not cancel actions (only in some cases, like spellcasting, can they do so), they just interrupt them (right after the beginning, before they actually get fully resolved) and after the AoO has been done, the action is resolved normally (unless, of course, it has become impossible).

An AoO to trip someone while standing up, does not prevent them from standing after everything has been worked out.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

There's merit in both camps -- the simplest way to resolve the whole discussion would be to revise the rules such that trip attacks can't be used as Attacks of Opportunity.

For myself, I prefer to rule that the trip attack on rising from prone results in a prone character, action wasted. Here's why I look at it that way:

(1) AoOs occur during the action that provokes them ( I don't see any evidence that they occur before them, except from interpretation of some of the special attack forms, where the AoO is the first thing resolved, but that doesn't indicate to me that "the AoO takes place before the action").

(2) It's clear that AoO's can interrupt or prevent some actions -- specifically (1) spells, subject to a Concentration check, and (2) grapple attempts. So there's precedent there. On the other hand, AoO's don't prevent other actions from occuring -- like drinking a potion, or firing a ranged weapon, or moving out of a threatened square. There's the rub -- if the action is not specifically mentioned, which category does it fall into? The safe bet is to say the action continues unless the rules specifically say it doesn't, as with a spell or grapple -- but

(3) Trip changes the target's state from standing to prone, and hence is itself an interruption. So a succesful trip attempt must change the target's state from "attempting to stand" back to prone, with the resulting loss of action.

So as I see it, it can be interpreted either way with roughly equal validity. What reinforces my view of giving the advantage to the tripper is this: the standing character has a distinct advantage over the prone character, and that includes being able to prevent the prone character from standing. It should, IMO, be possible for an attacker to keep a defender prone indefinitely, provided that (1) the attacker is competent enough, and (2) all the defender keeps doing is trying to get up. IMO, there's no god-given right to stand up from the prone.

If someone wants to optimize a character to be a trip-monster, more power to him; it isn't any worse in my experience than any other focused power-gaming tactic.

Beware the one-trick pony, though, 'cause someone else will come up and eat the bully's lunch while he focuses on keeping his victim on the floor.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Standing from prone as a free action should prevent AOOs in the same way that quickened spells do not provoke AOOs. The action happens too quickly for an opening.

Like Rapid Reloading a light crossbow, you mean? ... no, wait...

I apologize for the small sidetrack here, but does anyone have any problems with the prone character using Tumble and a Move Action to maneuver into a non-threatened square, and then stand up with their other Move Action?

Yeah - moving while prone is Crawling, which provokes an AoO in itself (like Running - not just for leaving a threatened square), and which is limited to five feet. Tumbling can be performed as part of normal movement. The extra restrictions Crawling carries disqualify it an "normal movement", as far as I'm concerned.

-Hyp.

 

[0-hr]

If someone tries to grapple you, and you hit them and do damage, do they get to continue their grapple?

Yes, of course they do - unless there is a rule specifically written to say otherwise.

Oh wait, there is. I guess that makes it even more clear that the default case is that you DO continue your action.

Thanks for supporting my argument!

 

[DrSpunj]

Yeah - moving while prone is Crawling, which provokes an AoO in itself (like Running - not just for leaving a threatened square), and which is limited to five feet. Tumbling can be performed as part of normal movement. The extra restrictions Crawling carries disqualify it an "normal movement", as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks, Hyp; that makes a lot of sense.

Thought my post was invisible there for awhile given the way everyone was scrambling to answer it.

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Hypersmurf]

Thought my post was invisible there for awhile given the way everyone was scrambling to answer it.

Well, to be fair, this thread's had over fifty posts in under twelve hours.

That's pretty quick for a Rules thread - it's easy for one message to get lost in the crowd

-Hyp.

 

[Camarath]

Trip changes the target's state from standing to prone, and hence is itself an interruption. So a succesful trip attempt must change the target's state from "attempting to stand" back to prone, with the resulting loss of action.

I do not believe that there is an "attempting to stand" state. I am of the opinion that one is prone until the end of the Stand up from prone action.

It's clear that AoO's can interrupt or prevent some actions -- specifically (1) spells, subject to a Concentration check, and (2) grapple attempts.

Also, Disarm attempts and using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity clearly state that they can be prevent by an AoO.

On the other hand, AoO's don't prevent other actions from occuring -- like drinking a potion,

From SRD
"Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. A successful attack (including grappling attacks) against the character forces a Concentration check (as for casting a spell). If the character fails this check, she cannot drink the potion."

or moving out of a threatened square.

That is a Movement based AoO rather than a Distracting Act based AoO so it could be considered to be a separate category for which Concentration would not apply.

There's the rub -- if the action is not specifically mentioned, which category does it fall into? The safe bet is to say the action continues unless the rules specifically say it doesn't, as with a spell or grapple

As I see there are three kinds of actions that provoke AoO Movement based actions, Distracting Acts, and Distracting Acts which requires your full attention i.e Concentration. I think it is pretty clear that Movement based AoO do not prevent the action or require Concentration checks. I am not clear on which Distracting Acts require Concentration and which do not or if actions that can be prevented by AoO but say nothing about Concentration (such as Grapple and Disarm attempts) can be continued as normal with a Concentration check.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I am not clear on which Distracting Acts require Concentration and which do not or if actions that can be prevented by AoO but say nothing about Concentration (such as Grapple and Disarm attempts) can be continued as normal with a Concentration check.

Grapple and Disarm are negated if the AoO deals any damage. Concentration doesn't apply.

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

Why not just go with the obvious assumption that only those actions which specifically state they require concentration checks require concentration checks? Why go looking for rules that aren't there?