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Message: <blockquote data-quote="igavskoga" data-source="post: 3216956" data-attributes="member: 41188">I don't think its so much a question of Players knowing NO rules OR players knowing ALL rules.Players knowing everything in the PHB is perfectly fine.  Indeed, familiarity with the PHB is obligatory IMO.  Without familiarity with the PHB you get all these issues that people raised with slowdowns and whatnot associated with a player not sufficiently knowing the foundation required for a savvy player.I think the grey area of contention meant by this thread is the extent of knowledge *outside* the basic rules found in the PHB.  At least that's what I got from reading through so far.Assuming a basic foundation of at least familiarity with the PHB - how much beyond that is too much?  Is there too much?As a long-time DM I struggle constantly with how to maintain a bit of the wonder that slowly dwindles over time.  I can completely understand that sentiment.  On the other hand, I make almost as much of a hobby out of collecting and reading the books as I do out of running games - I can completely empathize with that side of things as well.I make sure my players know, up front, what kind of house rules and system changes there are to abilities, classes, chargen, etc.  This falls under the previously mentioned PHB familiarity and something all players need to be familiar with in order to make for a smooth play experience.On the other hand, if I toss in some class levels or tweak stats and abilities of the NPCs in an encounter, I feel no obligation to warn players.  Its my job to present an interesting and engaging challenge for them to overcome.  Its not my job to give them a crib sheet to the test two nights before.Happily I've only ever run into one player who was bound and determined to harass me whenenver I deviated from the RAW on my side of the screen.  Thankfully he was the flexible sort and, once we'd talked it over a bit, he settled in quite nicely after a session or two and had himself a blast.I'd also have to concur with the opinion that it is less what they know and more how they put that knowledge to use.  I find discrete rules monkies to be an invaluable resource, regardless of whether I'm a PC or DM.  I find players who use that knowledge as a club to bludgeon out whatever advantage they can to be very aggrivating whether I'm playing or DMing.</blockquote>

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