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Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique
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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7535459" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>You need to keep repeating this because it's not actually been proven. Actually, I take that back. It has been pretty clearly <strong>disproven</strong>.</p><p></p><p>A 1st level direct damage spell will almost always out damage any cantrip, regardless of the caster's level. The best you can hope for, the absolute best, is 4d10 with a cantrip. They don't ever get any better than that. Numerous 1st level spells, cast as a 1st level slot, will outdamage this. Burning hands is 3d6/target. Three targets will result in a 1st level burning hands, cast at 1st level, dealing 9d6 damage. That clearly out damages any cantrip.</p><p></p><p>And, again, we're talking a 17th level caster to deal this kind of damage. By this point, a 17th level caster has NINETEEN spell slots per day. A good adventuring day is what, 20 rounds long? At this point, a wizard doesn't need to use cantrips. A sorcerer is even further ahead with arcane recovery. Extra 8 levels of slots/day? Yeah, I'm never running out of slots by that point.</p><p></p><p>You need to prove the following:</p><p></p><p>1. That at some point, cantrips deal more damage than 1st level spells.</p><p>2. That this damage disparity is great enough to warrant changes.</p><p></p><p>I mean, good grief, if the sorcerer or wizard in your group isn't either the top or number two damage dealer in your party, there's something SERIOUSLY wrong with the players. There's just no way that a non-caster is even coming close to the total damage that a high level caster is pumping out. Fireball is routinely doing 70-100 points of damage per casting (imagine 4-6 targets). And the wiz/sorc can do that at LEAST 3/day by 17th level. The non-casters aren't even in the same league by that time.</p><p></p><p>Look, tell you what. Track the actual damage and actual spells cast in your next two or three sessions. Don't go by your gut, because your gut is often wrong. Actually write down who deals what for a couple of sessions. The notion that the casters need to deal even more damage is not something I think is very needed in the game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7535459, member: 22779"] You need to keep repeating this because it's not actually been proven. Actually, I take that back. It has been pretty clearly [B]disproven[/B]. A 1st level direct damage spell will almost always out damage any cantrip, regardless of the caster's level. The best you can hope for, the absolute best, is 4d10 with a cantrip. They don't ever get any better than that. Numerous 1st level spells, cast as a 1st level slot, will outdamage this. Burning hands is 3d6/target. Three targets will result in a 1st level burning hands, cast at 1st level, dealing 9d6 damage. That clearly out damages any cantrip. And, again, we're talking a 17th level caster to deal this kind of damage. By this point, a 17th level caster has NINETEEN spell slots per day. A good adventuring day is what, 20 rounds long? At this point, a wizard doesn't need to use cantrips. A sorcerer is even further ahead with arcane recovery. Extra 8 levels of slots/day? Yeah, I'm never running out of slots by that point. You need to prove the following: 1. That at some point, cantrips deal more damage than 1st level spells. 2. That this damage disparity is great enough to warrant changes. I mean, good grief, if the sorcerer or wizard in your group isn't either the top or number two damage dealer in your party, there's something SERIOUSLY wrong with the players. There's just no way that a non-caster is even coming close to the total damage that a high level caster is pumping out. Fireball is routinely doing 70-100 points of damage per casting (imagine 4-6 targets). And the wiz/sorc can do that at LEAST 3/day by 17th level. The non-casters aren't even in the same league by that time. Look, tell you what. Track the actual damage and actual spells cast in your next two or three sessions. Don't go by your gut, because your gut is often wrong. Actually write down who deals what for a couple of sessions. The notion that the casters need to deal even more damage is not something I think is very needed in the game. [/QUOTE]
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Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique
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