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Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique
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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7535954" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>The reason you've had to repeat yourself, and the reason I brought in non-damaging cantrips, is because your basic premise is flawed. You are insisting that cantrips at high levels are inherently better than 1st or 2nd level spells.</p><p></p><p>You have yet to actually demonstrate that. Several people, including myself, have shown you why we think that your assumptions are mistaken. </p><p></p><p>Now, if you want to compare cantrips to weapon attacks, then I might be much better persuaded. One failing I see in 5e is that clerics and druids, by being granted damage dealing cantrips, are no longer really weapon classes. Most cantrips, particularly at high level, well far out damage any weapon damage a cleric or druid can do. So, it means that clerics (outside of maybe war clerics) and certainly Land druids are basically full time casters, which is something that these classes actually weren't in the past. Clerics and druids weren't all that far behind fighters at one time when it came time to smack people about the head and ears with lumpy metal things.</p><p></p><p>But now? What's the point of doing a d8+Str (maybe with a couple of extra bits) when my cantrips are doing 3d8 or even 4d8 (or 4d10 with Toll the Dead)? I could seriously see the argument for bumping clerics and druids a bit in melee and dropping direct damage cantrips.</p><p></p><p>But wizards? Naw. Cantrips aren't dealing enough damage to overshadow 1st and certainly not 2nd level spells. If you think that Fire Bolt overshadows Chromatic Orb, well, maybe. But it's certainly not overshadowing Scorching Ray at any caster level. </p><p></p><p>And there is another issue as well. In the base game (ignoring additional books for the moment), the only direct damage dealing 1st level spells are Magic Missile and Burning Hands and Thunderwave. At 2nd level, you've got Acid Arrow, Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray and Shatter. That's seven spells out of what, sixty spells? I'm fairly willing to say that dealing direct damage isn't really what 1st and 2nd level spells are for anyway. When 90% of your 1st and 2nd level wizard spells DON'T deal direct damage, I'd hazard a guess to say that utility is far more what these slots are for.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7535954, member: 22779"] The reason you've had to repeat yourself, and the reason I brought in non-damaging cantrips, is because your basic premise is flawed. You are insisting that cantrips at high levels are inherently better than 1st or 2nd level spells. You have yet to actually demonstrate that. Several people, including myself, have shown you why we think that your assumptions are mistaken. Now, if you want to compare cantrips to weapon attacks, then I might be much better persuaded. One failing I see in 5e is that clerics and druids, by being granted damage dealing cantrips, are no longer really weapon classes. Most cantrips, particularly at high level, well far out damage any weapon damage a cleric or druid can do. So, it means that clerics (outside of maybe war clerics) and certainly Land druids are basically full time casters, which is something that these classes actually weren't in the past. Clerics and druids weren't all that far behind fighters at one time when it came time to smack people about the head and ears with lumpy metal things. But now? What's the point of doing a d8+Str (maybe with a couple of extra bits) when my cantrips are doing 3d8 or even 4d8 (or 4d10 with Toll the Dead)? I could seriously see the argument for bumping clerics and druids a bit in melee and dropping direct damage cantrips. But wizards? Naw. Cantrips aren't dealing enough damage to overshadow 1st and certainly not 2nd level spells. If you think that Fire Bolt overshadows Chromatic Orb, well, maybe. But it's certainly not overshadowing Scorching Ray at any caster level. And there is another issue as well. In the base game (ignoring additional books for the moment), the only direct damage dealing 1st level spells are Magic Missile and Burning Hands and Thunderwave. At 2nd level, you've got Acid Arrow, Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray and Shatter. That's seven spells out of what, sixty spells? I'm fairly willing to say that dealing direct damage isn't really what 1st and 2nd level spells are for anyway. When 90% of your 1st and 2nd level wizard spells DON'T deal direct damage, I'd hazard a guess to say that utility is far more what these slots are for. [/QUOTE]
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Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique
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