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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Maerdwyn" data-source="post: 1685631" data-attributes="member: 835">In this case, and depending on the size of the group, I would suggest some others instead. As stated by others, if 1) and 2) are concerns of the group, the two you're looking at may not be the best fit, despite the really excellent gameplay of both. Instead, I'm going to mention a few games I'd suggest you try first, if you haven't already. (If you've been boardgaming for longer than a few years, you've probably played/own some or all of these, as they've been around for a long time. If that's the case, sorry. Still, if you haven't got them, they're worth a look, as theme-wise, they seem to fit some of your criteria.) Re: the older games -- most of these are better with larger groups, and tend to run longer than some of the more modern games mentioned so far. Anyway, FWIW, here goes: 1) <a href="http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/6707" target="_blank">Age of Mythology</a> - Actually, this one isn't old, and it's for 2-4 players - but it's still about 3-4 hours, rather than the 1.5 for Carc or Settlers. It came out last year or the year before and is the easily best game that Eagle Games has put out. All of their games have <a href="http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/37564" target="_blank">beautiful pieces</a>, but Age of Mythology is, in fact, an excellent game based on the MS computer game of the same name. Very nice balance of resource management and combat. You can check out Eagles other games (Sid Meier's Civilization, American Civil War, etc.) for more *fantastic* bits, but the games themselves aren't as good, IMHO. 2) The new Hasbro edition of <a href="http://www.fairplaygames.com/gamedisplay.asp?gameid=126" target="_blank">Diplomacy</a> is very pretty, and seems like it would be great for you guys if you can come up with the players (5-7. 7 is easily best). There is absolutely no luck involved, and the negotiation leads to great immersiveness. 4+ hours. 3)<a href="http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/6472" target="_blank">A Game of Thrones</a>, a (very light) wargame based on the George RR Martin books, which apparently takes a lot from Diplomacy, though I haven't played it yet. It's gotten great reviews since it came out at GenCon last year, and it might be worth a look. 4) <a href="http://www.boardgamegeek.com/viewitem.php3?gameid=242" target="_blank">Junta</a> is another large-group, backstabbing-oriented game, with added bonus of being rather un-PC, Banana Republic fun for a larger group. The bits aren't as attractive, but it's quite immersive, especially if your group can manage really bad accents. 4 hours+ 5) <a href="http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/28" target="_blank">Illuminati </a>- The money chits and the very funny, full-color cards are all you get for bits, but it's very satisfying to use the Orbital Mind Control Laser to transform the Congressional Wives into a Communist organization so they have better chance to destroy California, all in the service of Cthulhu. Playable with 3, best with 5-6. 2-4 hours. 6) <a href="http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/173" target="_blank">Formula De </a>- Lighter than the others mentioned, but a blast to play. Car racing theme; polygonal dice-based. No outright killing, but you can use your secondary car to crash into an opponent <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Comes with a pretty, double sided gameboard, and other gameboards are available to mix up the racing. 1-2 hours, 2-10 players.</blockquote>

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