Caster levels and rangers

[Pickaxe]

My undertsanding (from the rules and from posts on these boards) is that a ranger (or paladin) who is not yet fourth level has no caster level, and therefore cannot make caster level checks to use scrolls of, say, cure light wounds. Can anyone point out the SRD text that spells this out? I've looked in the expected places, and I couldn't find anything explicit enough to refute the argument that a first level ranger can make caster checks as if he were caster level zero.

--Axe

 

[Vorput]

My undertsanding (from the rules and from posts on these boards) is that a ranger (or paladin) who is not yet fourth level has no caster level, and therefore cannot make caster level checks to use scrolls of, say, cure light wounds. Can anyone point out the SRD text that spells this out? I've looked in the expected places, and I couldn't find anything explicit enough to refute the argument that a first level ranger can make caster checks as if he were caster level zero.

--Axe

I always thought this was the way it worked too- but reaidng the SRD again brings me to another conclusions.

Activate the Spell
Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.

Unless there's something elsewhere, based upon this- A ranger and/or paladin could use the scroll with an effective caster level of 0... IF one can make caster level checks if they don't have a caster level... that may be the crux of the issue.

Vorp

 

[Pinotage]

My undertsanding (from the rules and from posts on these boards) is that a ranger (or paladin) who is not yet fourth level has no caster level, and therefore cannot make caster level checks to use scrolls of, say, cure light wounds. Can anyone point out the SRD text that spells this out? I've looked in the expected places, and I couldn't find anything explicit enough to refute the argument that a first level ranger can make caster checks as if he were caster level zero.

--Axe

Not sure about scrolls, but for wands the only requirement is that you have the spell on your spell list. A 1st level ranger does have it on his spell list, even though he can't cast it yet, so he could use a wand. For a scroll you need to be high enough level to cast the spell - I'm not sure the ranger qualifies for that since its caster level only kicks in later.

Pinotage

 

[Hypersmurf]

Unless there's something elsewhere, based upon this- A ranger and/or paladin could use the scroll with an effective caster level of 0... IF one can make caster level checks if they don't have a caster level... that may be the crux of the issue.

The 3rd level ranger doesn't have a caster level of 0; he has no caster level. That's a caster level of --, not a caster level of 0.

He can't make a caster level check. He can use wands, but not scrolls.

-Hyp.

 

[Sidekick]

The Smurf is correct.

1st-3rd level ranger can use wands but not scrolls.

once they hit 4th level they gain a caster level, so then they can use scrolls.

===

As an aside - I house rule that casters have to be capable of casting in order to use a wand. This means that rangers, paladins & hexblades(maybe?) have to be 4th level in order to use wands. I only hand wave when there is no cleric/fav soul/bard in teh group to do the healing.

 

[GorTeX]

I think the quest is..where does it state that you cannot make a caster level check if you have no caster level?

Caster Level Checks
To make a caster level check, roll 1d20 and add your caster level (in the relevant class). If the result equals or exceeds the DC (or the spell resistance, in the case of caster level checks made for spell resistance), the check succeeds.

nothing there that says if you have no caster level then you can't make a caster level check...you'd just add nothing (your caster level) to the d20 roll.



a related restriction:

The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level).

I imagine that most rangers aren't going to be too successfull on deciphering the scroll before 4th level

 

[Hypersmurf]

nothing there that says if you have no caster level then you can't make a caster level check...you'd just add nothing (your caster level) to the d20 roll.

There's a difference between 'add your caster level' and 'add your caster level (if any)'.

You don't have a caster level of 0 to add to the d20 roll.

Let's take an example of someone with a caster level of 0 - maybe a Ranger 8 with the Mage Slayer feat.

"Roll a d20"
"13."
"Now add your caster level."
"0, so, 13."

Now let's take the example of someone with no caster level - like a Ranger 3.

"Roll a d20"
"13."
"Now add your caster level."
"My what, now?"

There's a difference in D&D between zero, and nothing.

A bard whose level grants him 0 spells per day of a certain level can add his bonus spells to that. A bard whose level grants him -- spells per day cannot.

A creature with a Constitution of 0 is dead. A creature with a Constitution of -- is probably undead or a construct.

A creature with a Strength of 0 is paralyzed. A creature with a Strength of -- is probably incorporeal.

Zero and nothing are not treated the same.

-Hyp.

 

[GorTeX]

in each of those instances, I believe that it is spelled out how the difference between 0 and none work. For caster level, I can't find where it says that you can't make a caster level check without having a caster level. I'm not saying it isn't there, or that isn't how it should work...I'm wondering where, if anywhere, the rules state that. (even as a general rule about the difference between 'None' and '0'.

 

[moritheil]

in each of those instances, I believe that it is spelled out how the difference between 0 and none work. For caster level, I can't find where it says that you can't make a caster level check without having a caster level. I'm not saying it isn't there, or that isn't how it should work...I'm wondering where, if anywhere, the rules state that. (even as a general rule about the difference between 'None' and '0'.

I don't mean to be offensive, but does it need to be spelled out like that? Let's assume you are a formian queen, and thus cannot move. Can you hustle overland? There's no possible way you can succeed at that, because you lack the ability to move. Similarly, an NPC commoner should have no possible way (barring DM intervention, plot points, etc.) of activating a magic item requiring a caster level (unless, of course, someone wants to try to be witty and say, "Aha, but he could be a multiclass commoner, or a commoner with cross-class ranks, or with a feat allowing him to do so . . . ") I don't see any reason the same logic would not apply to rangers before 4th level. (As a fun side-effect, I do not think they count as divine casters either; thus, some obscure things that grant bonuses against divine casters should probably also not apply.)

I can understand your desire to be very clear on the rules as written; in this case, I believe that the authors just didn't think that it needed to be spelled out that explicitly.

 

[GorTeX]

nope..doesn't need to be spelled out...just wondering if it is. Makes no real difference to me actually..don't know of anyone who would allow a ranger 3 to use a scroll at all.

But sometimes, it is nice to know where the rules are not perfect and all inclusive--there are times that a DM and/or Player must make a judgement call based (or not based) on the rules that are there.