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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bowbe" data-source="post: 2985427" data-attributes="member: 6328">What about player characters with insane will saves and equally gross fortitude and or will saves?I think monsters need a break! Heck I'd give them even better saves, not to make the wizards and clerics completely useless but to give the poor monsters a fighting chance! The PCs did invade their friendly domicile with murderous intent and greed in their hearts. They wouldn't be carrying those shiny keen weapons, portable holes and bags of holding if this were not the case! What ever happend to good old "Home field advantage?"Take for example a 16th level fully loaded dwarven barbarian.+2 saves vs. MagicGreater Rage (Ex)At 11th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his rage each increase to +6, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +3. The penalty to AC remains at -2Indomitable Will (Ex)While in a rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves he also receives during his rage. Soo if said dwarf has a respectable wisdom (say 12) for +1 to will saves, and is attacked with an magical enchantment spell He gets +9. for a full tally of +14. Add Iron Will Feat and that makes it a +16. By now he probably has a wisdom boosting item (say +4 wisdom) if he is smart and/or the DM is kind... bringing his total to +18. Don't roll a 1 on anything below DC 19 and he's absolutely fine. Besides rolling a 2 beats or meets a DC 20 enchantment spell. If facing the greater host of other CR 16-18 hosts with an equally obscene intelligence/wisdom/charisma intelligence (20+ with boosts, or in the case of monsters "Supernatural Intellect, Wisdom/Charisma") a caster would have to resort to spells of 6th level and higher, spells from a school where spell focus and greater spell focus in enchantment are in effect. But this is about sick fortitude saves right?Same dwarf. You can rest assured that CON is definitely not his "dump stat" probably right up there with strength as tied for highest, highest, or 2nd highest stat. 16th level gets +16 on fort saves. With the average DC for level draining effects being around 16, he pretty much gains auto success on that dreaded "roll to see if you permanently lose levels" roll. Course by now if he isn't a total tool to the party cleric, he has insurance against that effect ever being "permanent". With racial +2 to con, figure he started with a 16 or better so if he has a constitution enhancing item (and what 16th level dwarven barbarian wouldn't) That fort save goes up to what? +19 to +21. Raging? Add another +4 to that fort save baby!Definitely not going to be bothered by any puny wizard or cleric with an modified intelligence or wisdom score of 24 with any save or die spells unless he rolls that dreaded natural 1. Their best DC with a 9th level spell with the feats to buff their  DC is about 27. His worst roll by getting a 2 is 27! A @#$@ 27!! Woah Ho! Hold on now, what if the Wizard is specialized in that school of magic? Don't forget that mr. smarty pants! Ok Given. Woo he needs a 3 or 4. It can happen but it isn't likely. Ok I may be being a "little" bit sarcastic! It's all good trust me.Hey now... don't they have a feat that you can take in PHB2 where even a natural 1 isn't an automatic failure? Cool. Make sure to get that too! Hahahah!Can't monsters get a feat to insure that a natural 20 isn't actually a hit? I should write one of those up for TOH4 if we ever do it!And I didn't even mention a good quality cloak of resistance now did I? Those are fairly easy to get "common" magic items! Haruumph. Monsters only have increasing size categories and constitution (or lack thereof) to get them through! All in good fun! In fairness I would like to say that I play a lot of 3.5, dm mostly and run into this sorta stuff a lot... just like most of the people who hang here. Common gaming concern, these saving throws and things that rapidly explode. Even so I recently started playing and writing a lot of Castles & Crusades.Here is their novel approach which I believe suits this discourse admirably. Wait for it... (before the moaning starts in as it always does! Hahahah!) All done?Good let me continue for a moment more...In Castles & Crusades the challenge of the spell increases based on the level of the caster! Saves get more challenging when cast by a higher level spell caster! Let me repeat that again. Saves get more challenging when cast by a higher level caster! ( I love copy paste).That means your spells get better as you go up in levels. Your puny spells like web are tougher to avoid when you are higher level vs. weak foes, and equally challenging to foes of your own calibur. Making people all sleepy and snoozy is just as effective when your a higher level wizzie as it was when you were a 1st-2nd level twerp. Yes. That means you can still cast your 1st level spells with some decent result even when your 10th+ level, rather than your character just filling space in his brain with them every day like candy in a pinata. Pretty cool.Case</blockquote>

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