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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Sigil" data-source="post: 918676" data-attributes="member: 2013">20% Rule of Thumb.I'm going to ask folks to look at the "nerfing" of spells with regard to the "20% Rule of Thumb."Remember, a group of 4 characters of Level N should have 20% of their resources used up in an encounter with a creature of CR N.What resources, exactly, does the typical party of a wizard, cleric, rogue, and fighter have?Well, let's look at, say, a 10th-level party (whips out Jamis Buck's Generator)=========Thamiust, male half-elf Wiz10: CR 10; Size M (5 ft., 4 in. tall); HD 10d4; hp 34; Init +2 (+2 Dex); Spd 30 ft.; AC 12 (+2 Dex); Attack +6 melee, or +7 ranged; SV Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +7; AL NE; Str 12, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 10.Feats: Brew potion, Craft rod, Extend spell, Heighten spell, Lightning reflexes, Maximize spell, Scribe scroll.Wizard Spells Known (4/5/5/4/3/2): 0th -- Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Disrupt Undead, Flare, Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Open/Close, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Read Magic, Resistance. 1st -- Color Spray, Expeditious Retreat, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Protection from Good, Reduce, Sleep. 2nd -- Blur, Continual Flame, Invisibility, Knock, Levitate, Minor Image, Mirror Image, See Invisibility, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Web. 3rd -- Fly, Haste, Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Slow, Tongues. 4th -- Dimensional Anchor, Enervation, Fire Trap, Wall of Fire. 5th -- Cone of Cold, Hold Monster, Summon Monster V, Teleport, Transmute Mud to Rock, Wall of Stone. ==========Garret, male halfling (lightfoot) Ftr10: CR 10; Size S (3 ft., 3 in. tall); HD 10d10+30; hp 84; Init +8 (+4 Dex, +4 Improved initiative); Spd 20 ft.; AC 15 (+4 Dex, +1 Size); Attack +14/+9 melee, or +15/+10 ranged; SV Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +6; AL LE; Str 17, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 16.Feats: Ambidexterity, Dodge, Endurance, Improved Critical (warhammer), Improved initiative, Power attack, Quick draw, Two-weapon fighting, Weapon focus (warhammer), Weapon specialization (warhammer).==========Roman, male human Rog10: CR 10; Size M (5 ft., 6 in. tall); HD 10d6+10; hp 50; Init +4 (+4 Dex); Spd 30 ft.; AC 14 (+4 Dex); Attack +7/+2 melee, or +11/+6 ranged; SV Fort +4, Ref +13, Will +5; AL NE; Str 10, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 11, Cha 8.Skills and feats: Decipher script +12, Disguise +10, Escape artist +16, Hide +17, Intimidate +11, Jump +12, Listen +15, Move silently +16, Perform +11, Profession +13, Search +12, Spot +2, Use rope +17; Alertness, Combat reflexes, Iron will, Lightning reflexes, Weapon finesse (dagger).==========Olga, female half-elf Clr10: CR 10; Size M (5 ft., 3 in. tall); HD 10d8; hp 49; Init +0; Spd 30 ft.; AC 10; Attack +9/+4 melee, or +7/+2 ranged; SV Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +10; AL LE; Str 15, Dex 11, Con 11, Int 4, Wis 17, Cha 12.Feats: Combat casting, Heighten spell, Quicken spell, Still spell.Cleric Domains: Sun, Evil.Cleric Spells Per Day: 6/5+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1.===========That's your party.  You may use only PHB/DMG (core) equipment to outfit them; each of them gets 16,000 gp worth of equipment.Let's now pull out a CR 10 foe... for the "iconic D&D" feel, let's get a dragon... (whips out the online Netbook of Creatures)Dragon, Adult BlackLarge Dragon (  Water )Hit Dice: 19d12+76Initiative: 0Speed: 60 ft., fly 150 ft.(poor), swim 60 ft.AC: 27 (-1 size, +18 natural)Att: Bite +24 melee, 2 claws +19 melee, 2 wings +19 melee, tail slap +19 meleeDmg: Bite 2d6+6, claw 1d8+3, wing 1d6+3, tail slap 1d8+9Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 10 ft./10 ft.Special Attacks: Breath weapon (Line of acid, 12d4, save DC 23), spellsSpecial Qualities: Acid immunity, water breathing, frightful prescence (Will DC 20), SR 18Saving Throws: Fort +15, Ref +11, Will +12Abilities: Str 23, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 12Skills: Listen +20, Search +20, Spellcraft +20, Spot +20, and 76 more skill pointsFeats: 5 feats-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Climate/Terrain: Any marsh and undergroundOrganization: Solitary, pair, or family (1-2 and 2-5 offspring)CR: 10Treasure: Double StandardAlignment: Chaotic EvilAdvancement Range: 20-21 HD (Huge)Your task?Run the PCs above against the dragon and see if they actually DO use up 20% of their resources.  (Preferably do it multiple times and take the average).  This means (to me, anyway) that they should, on average, lose about 20% of their hp, 20% of spells, 20% of the value of their equipment (including use of charges from items, potions, etc).There.  We all have a "core" standard to work from, let's see if, on average, the heroes do in fact have to use 20% of their resources.  Specifically, I think it means you should see:The Wizard forced to use one 4th or 5th level spell AND one 3rd level spell AND three 1st and 2nd level spells, and probably several charges from a wand.The Fighter forced to act as a "meatwall" and use more than 20% of his hp (he's taking up the hp slack of other characters).  Possible sundering of a weapon.The Rogue using up several temporary magic items, and probably some hp damage.The Cleric using up at least one spell of each level 1-5 plus another spell of about level 2.  Probably takes some hp damage too.If it doesn't take you AT LEAST that much to knock out the dragon, you're not at the right balance.  IOW, it should take a Finger of Death, or maybe a Flame Strike, a Cone of Cold, a Lightning Bolt, three or four buff spells, a Magic Missile or two, maybe a Cause Serious Wounds (or a timely cure or two) - plus some shots from temporary magic items like a wand of fireballs - just to bring down ONE dragon (218-ish hp)... plus of course the fighter banging on the dragon with his hammer.Then repeat the experiment, substituting a cleric for the wizard.  Or another wizard for the rogue.  Etc.If you find that substituting CLASS X for another class consistently lowers the required expenditure on the part of the party, that class is overpowered.My guess... and it is just that... is that adding another wizard will, more often than not, lower the average expenditure of resources... which makes them overpowered and in need of nerfing.--The Sigil</blockquote>

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