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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Voadam" data-source="post: 8435713" data-attributes="member: 2209">I think the biggest breakdown comes down to how magic compares to martials in doing combat.Magic can do better than martials, better under certain circumstances, balanced, or less than martials. 4e did a great job of balancing combat power and making martials seem really good options for combat. Out of the<a href="https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/161671/Players-Handbook-4e?affiliate_id=17596" target="_blank"> 4e PH1</a> rangers and rogues seemed to edge out warlocks as the strongest strikers (warlocks have a bit of controller role mixed in), fighters were a little better than paladins at being defenders (paladins have a little leader/healer/buffer role mixed in), and warlords seemed up there with clerics for healing/buffs. Most of D&D has variations of magic is better under certain circumstances, with the frequency of those situations varying by edition, level, specific choices, and DM and player choices and styles.The balance of at will versus x/day powers (how much damage do you expect a fighter to do in a round versus a fireball), amount of magical resources, expected average combat situations (able to use a lot of x/day resources or not), and so on are big factors for the combat calculus.Whether magic can bypass normal combat procedures through control or save or die compared to attack rolls and hp attrition can also be a big factor.Secondarily as a general concern is out of combat situations, how does magic stack against those without magic. A rogue versus a magic user is the normal comparison with knock and invisibility being X/day resources that can generally be better than a non-magical specialist at picking locks and stealthing. Magic can also do out of combat things like divination, teleport, reshaping things, etc. Social stuff also comes in here with charms compelling people under defined rules in powerful ways versus social skills being less defined and more subject to roleplaying what seems reasonable.Also sometimes you have things like 3e martial fighters who commonly have really low non-combat skills compared to others (which is designed to be equal in combat for all classes even if it does not live up to that design goal)</blockquote>

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