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<blockquote data-quote="Asisreo" data-source="post: 8489878" data-attributes="member: 7019027">The level thing is the most powerful option because it really does narrow down what spells a creature can cast, even if it's not specific. Let's say you're 7th level, you're going to know that the Mage either can or cannot cast 4th-level spells. If they can, they can cast spells of 4th-level and lower. If they can't, they can't cast spells 4th-level or higher. And usually it's easy to tell what type of class that creature represents, but if it's difficult, your party still has a baseline. I'm not going to engage a conversation that's based purely on your unchanging opinion about what's &quot;undervalued&quot; or not, considering my opinion is based on experiences using the features or seeing them used creatively. To me, it's like saying &quot;Wish&quot; is an okay-ish spell because it uses an 9th-level slot for an 8th-level spell. That is what it does, and if you can't see its value there isn't much to say about it anymore that can change your mind. But I would like to say that there is an unreasonably high standard set for martials that must be met for any of their abilities to be seen as useful. The game has various mechanics but unless your martial has an insta-win ability for any given noncombat challenge, it's seen as worthless. Shouting creatures into submission is bad design not because it makes martials seem fantastic, it's bad design because it would turn that class into the &quot;Shouts at everything&quot; class and suddenly you have to engage in a certain type of character that kinda ruins other people's fun. That's a problem with spells as well. Some spells are poorly designed. Spells like Simulacrum and Forcecage which easily lend themselves to being disruptive or spells like Witchbolt and Find Traps which are almost laughably bad. The difference is that spells are opt-in and a DM banning them still leaves options for the wizard. If the DM bans Intimidating Presence, they've objectively made the barbarian worse.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Asisreo, post: 8489878, member: 7019027"] The level thing is the most powerful option because it really does narrow down what spells a creature can cast, even if it's not specific. Let's say you're 7th level, you're going to know that the Mage either can or cannot cast 4th-level spells. If they can, they can cast spells of 4th-level and lower. If they can't, they can't cast spells 4th-level or higher. And usually it's easy to tell what type of class that creature represents, but if it's difficult, your party still has a baseline. I'm not going to engage a conversation that's based purely on your unchanging opinion about what's "undervalued" or not, considering my opinion is based on experiences using the features or seeing them used creatively. To me, it's like saying "Wish" is an okay-ish spell because it uses an 9th-level slot for an 8th-level spell. That is what it does, and if you can't see its value there isn't much to say about it anymore that can change your mind. But I would like to say that there is an unreasonably high standard set for martials that must be met for [I]any[/I] of their abilities to be seen as useful. The game has various mechanics but unless your martial has an insta-win ability for any given noncombat challenge, it's seen as worthless. Shouting creatures into submission is bad design not because it makes martials seem fantastic, it's bad design because it would turn that class into the "Shouts at everything" class and suddenly you [I]have[/I] to engage in a certain type of character that kinda ruins other people's fun. That's a problem with spells as well. Some spells are poorly designed. Spells like Simulacrum and Forcecage which easily lend themselves to being disruptive or spells like Witchbolt and Find Traps which are almost laughably bad. The difference is that spells are opt-in and a DM banning them still leaves options for the wizard. If the DM bans Intimidating Presence, they've objectively made the barbarian worse. [/QUOTE]

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