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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8492533" data-attributes="member: 87792">Or because the DM wants a new campaign. But if the real fall-off for the fighter and rogue are post level 11 and most games don't reach level 11 then they don't see it. The fighter and rogue are good for the whole run of over 90% of games even if they aren't for 40% of the levels published.And I think most people agree that the core concept of the fighter and the rogue are good. They just don't scale.If the fighter wants to build the wall then either:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">They are asking the rest of the party to sit on their thumbs for ten days while they build this wall</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">They are sitting out of ten days worth of adventure while they build the wall.</li> </ol>The first is a dick move for the rest of the party. The second is no fun at all because you are missing an entire adventure.Therefore the fighter is very unlikely to build a wall.Yes, ten minutes is fast. It's less than the time needed for a short rest. It's an amount of time that the rest of the party can meaningfully make good use of. And it doesn't take the wizard 10 minutes to build the wall. It takes them 1 action. The ten minutes is just waiting for the wall to become permanent. They can e.g. keep travelling in it.The wizard didn't create the wall by turning themself into an NPC for the entire day and sitting out an entire adventure. And they didn't need a literal ton of building materials to do it.Do you mean the fighter and the ranger or the fighter and the rogue? I'd also make a case for the barbarian never getting beyond "Hollywood action hero" to reach superheroic. Sure one can take punishment like John McClain and hit like a character played by The Rock - but they don't go beyond that and into outright superheroic. People don't complain as much because they start as larger than life and more or less just stay there.</blockquote>

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