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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8492585" data-attributes="member: 87792">The first is just having a high baseline, it doesn't let them go above and beyond. It's pretty much super-advantage. The second lets them break mundane bounds - but only by about 20%. For me the Heroic tier is anything I'd see in Hollywood action movies or non-supernatural martial arts movies rather than real life. Indiana Jones and John McClane aren't superheroes for example. Nor is the average Jackie Chan character even if no one could actually take the punishment Jackie's characters do.Indomitable Might and Primal Champion are not to me remotely outside the bounds I'd see in an action movie for a character whose schtick is strength.Utterly irrelevant in play especially in a world with elves. A human with timeless body will remain in their prime for less time than an elf without it. Improved unarmoured movement letting them run on water on the other hand to me does push them over the line.Seriously? I'd have accepted Lay On Hands. But Divine Health isn't to me remotely in the realms&nbsp; of superheroism.Ah, the PHB ranger, the class weak enough they fixxed it. But seriously, rangers have spells.Again Reliable talent is super-advantage. I'd consider e.g. most of the Leverage crew to have it. It's in the Heroic &quot;Hollywood action movie but no actual superpowers&quot; rather than the superheroic tier.A wizard's origin is normally &quot;Somebody taught them&quot; and sometimes &quot;They went to the library&quot;. If that's all it takes then every single fighter who wants should be able to pass this bar. They can have teachers and they can read.And if the wizard's origin is &quot;semi demi hemi god&quot; then that should be open to fighters as well. The actual innate magical origins in 5e belong to sorcerers.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8492585, member: 87792"] The first is just having a high baseline, it doesn't let them go above and beyond. It's pretty much super-advantage. The second lets them break mundane bounds - but only by about 20%. For me the Heroic tier is anything I'd see in Hollywood action movies or non-supernatural martial arts movies rather than real life. Indiana Jones and John McClane aren't superheroes for example. Nor is the average Jackie Chan character even if no one could [I]actually[/I] take the punishment Jackie's characters do. Indomitable Might and Primal Champion are not to me remotely outside the bounds I'd see in an action movie for a character whose schtick is strength. Utterly irrelevant in play [I]especially[/I] in a world with elves. A human with timeless body will remain in their prime for less time than an elf without it. Improved unarmoured movement letting them run on water on the other hand to me does push them over the line. Seriously? I'd have accepted Lay On Hands. But Divine Health isn't to me remotely in the realms of superheroism. Ah, the [I]PHB[/I] ranger, the class weak enough they fixxed it. But seriously, rangers have spells. Again Reliable talent is super-advantage. I'd consider e.g. most of the Leverage crew to have it. It's in the Heroic "Hollywood action movie but no actual superpowers" rather than the superheroic tier. A wizard's origin is normally "Somebody taught them" and sometimes "They went to the library". If that's all it takes then every single fighter who wants should be able to pass this bar. They can have teachers and they can read. And if the wizard's origin is "semi demi hemi god" then that should be open to fighters as well. The actual innate magical origins in 5e belong to sorcerers. [/QUOTE]

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