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Casters vs Mundanes in your experience
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5915780" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>I mean that the problem isn't really the wizard. A smart wizard is stronger than most classes - but you need to either reflexively think the right way or be trying to make them sing.</p><p></p><p>The problem can be much more clearly expressed by three classes.</p><p></p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The Fighter</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The Druid</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The Monk</li> </ol><p>Fighters only have one area of expertise. Fighting. Outside fighting (and being dropped from great heights or being used as a food taster I suppose) they are almost indistinguishable from a commoner - almost no skill points and a terrible class list. They have very few skills and no other powers. <em>Any</em> spellcaster (even a highly evocation-centric blast mage who just makes stuff go boom) is going to have a range of options outside combat that the fighter can't match. Because a fighter is so weak out of combat based on abilities <em>he must be the best there is at what he does</em> or he's going to be overshadowed everywhere.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Druids are fighters' worst nightmares. A Druid is not one PC but two in combat. Which means that Druids have more hit points than fighters in total and can inflict more damage. A druid just needs to pick obvious animal companions and/or wildshapes (wolves and bears will do) and they will be able to go toe to toe with any fighter built by a novice. And because druids are casters they have options out of combat a fighter literally can't touch. Which means that even in the hands of someone not trying it is entirely likely that the druid will steal the show in combat and then make the fighter feel useless outside combat.</p><p></p><p></p><p>A druid played by a novice can therefore easily force a fighter played by a novice into the shade. Which will leave the fighter feeling bad because he can't do what he's supposed to and very possibly the druid feeling bad as well. This can be a complete accident and spoils the game for the fighter - and for any perceptive druid player as he tries to hold back to let the fighter in.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And then we get to the dear old 3.X monk. Who, I suppose, is <em>slightly</em> better than his 1e version (that had d4s as hit dice). The monk is so multi-attribute dependent it's silly. He needs strength for damage, wis and dex for ac, and con for hit points. In combat even with a decent wis you've the AC of a rogue, and the hit points of a rogue (con being a priority for everyone - and lower for you than most). You have deflect arrows - the rogue gets uncanny dodge. You have stunning fist and flurry (don't grapple - you become meat on the ground as your AC drops to 10) - the rogue gets sneak attack. Your "unarmed damage" looks good but is about that of a shortsword. Your only strength is good saving throws - other than that you can be outfought by the party rogue. Out of combat you've only 4+Int skills/level and many stats to prioritise - you're no skill monkey. (You're behind druid and barbarian due to your MAD). You gain some out of combat abilities sure - the ability to fall down pits and off buildings safely. And immunity to disease at fifth level for what that's worth.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So in combat you're no rogue, let alone a barbarian (who, let's not forget gains speed of his own). Out of combat you're no barbarian, let alone a rogue unless you mean to take up base jumping. Choosing a monk in either 1e or 3e is simply a negative play experience if you care what you are doing for the group - you will get overshadowed by people who aren't really trying to do things. (I'm delighted to say from experience that choosing a monk in 4e is emphatically not - you're a wire-fu martial artist who can run over buildings or up walls and perform breathtaking leaps without always having a chance of failure).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>One core issue to me is that flexibility is power. Classes with spells are always going to be more flexible than those without, so they need to allow the mundane ones to be significantly better than those who can cast spells at anything the mundanes choose to focus on. (Which to be fair has been the case with the classic wizard with his d4 hit dice and pathetic BAB/THAC0 - but not the cleric so much).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5915780, member: 87792"] I mean that the problem isn't really the wizard. A smart wizard is stronger than most classes - but you need to either reflexively think the right way or be trying to make them sing. The problem can be much more clearly expressed by three classes. [LIST=1] [*]The Fighter [*]The Druid [*]The Monk [/LIST] Fighters only have one area of expertise. Fighting. Outside fighting (and being dropped from great heights or being used as a food taster I suppose) they are almost indistinguishable from a commoner - almost no skill points and a terrible class list. They have very few skills and no other powers. [I]Any[/I] spellcaster (even a highly evocation-centric blast mage who just makes stuff go boom) is going to have a range of options outside combat that the fighter can't match. Because a fighter is so weak out of combat based on abilities [I]he must be the best there is at what he does[/I] or he's going to be overshadowed everywhere. Druids are fighters' worst nightmares. A Druid is not one PC but two in combat. Which means that Druids have more hit points than fighters in total and can inflict more damage. A druid just needs to pick obvious animal companions and/or wildshapes (wolves and bears will do) and they will be able to go toe to toe with any fighter built by a novice. And because druids are casters they have options out of combat a fighter literally can't touch. Which means that even in the hands of someone not trying it is entirely likely that the druid will steal the show in combat and then make the fighter feel useless outside combat. A druid played by a novice can therefore easily force a fighter played by a novice into the shade. Which will leave the fighter feeling bad because he can't do what he's supposed to and very possibly the druid feeling bad as well. This can be a complete accident and spoils the game for the fighter - and for any perceptive druid player as he tries to hold back to let the fighter in. And then we get to the dear old 3.X monk. Who, I suppose, is [I]slightly[/I] better than his 1e version (that had d4s as hit dice). The monk is so multi-attribute dependent it's silly. He needs strength for damage, wis and dex for ac, and con for hit points. In combat even with a decent wis you've the AC of a rogue, and the hit points of a rogue (con being a priority for everyone - and lower for you than most). You have deflect arrows - the rogue gets uncanny dodge. You have stunning fist and flurry (don't grapple - you become meat on the ground as your AC drops to 10) - the rogue gets sneak attack. Your "unarmed damage" looks good but is about that of a shortsword. Your only strength is good saving throws - other than that you can be outfought by the party rogue. Out of combat you've only 4+Int skills/level and many stats to prioritise - you're no skill monkey. (You're behind druid and barbarian due to your MAD). You gain some out of combat abilities sure - the ability to fall down pits and off buildings safely. And immunity to disease at fifth level for what that's worth. So in combat you're no rogue, let alone a barbarian (who, let's not forget gains speed of his own). Out of combat you're no barbarian, let alone a rogue unless you mean to take up base jumping. Choosing a monk in either 1e or 3e is simply a negative play experience if you care what you are doing for the group - you will get overshadowed by people who aren't really trying to do things. (I'm delighted to say from experience that choosing a monk in 4e is emphatically not - you're a wire-fu martial artist who can run over buildings or up walls and perform breathtaking leaps without always having a chance of failure). One core issue to me is that flexibility is power. Classes with spells are always going to be more flexible than those without, so they need to allow the mundane ones to be significantly better than those who can cast spells at anything the mundanes choose to focus on. (Which to be fair has been the case with the classic wizard with his d4 hit dice and pathetic BAB/THAC0 - but not the cleric so much). [/QUOTE]
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