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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7833549" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>Spells did less damage initially and scaled into more damage, saving throws were failed more at low levels than high levels because of the save mechanics used pre 3.x, and repeat save to break attempts weren't a thing then like they are now. Concentration didn't prevent buff stacking.</p><p></p><p>Hypnotism allowed 1d6 targets to be suggested, for example. Casters don't do that with 1st level spells now. Shield lasted 5 rounds / level. Hold person affected 1d4 humanoids for 2 rounds / level with no repeat saves. You could actually sleep a 4 hit die monster. Cause blindness / deafness was permanent. Command had no save check unless a minimum threshold of 13 INT or 6 HD was met. It was pretty easy to pull off 800 damage with creeping doom.</p><p></p><p>Even burning hands at 1d3+2/lvl started poor, yes, but when it was +20 it was definitely more damage than 5e. Preparing hypnotism, color spray, or sleep was a better choice, however. Even the light spell blinded a person for solid debuff 10 min/lvl. Most 5e cantrips were stronger 1st level spells in 2e.</p><p></p><p>Needing to roll a 17 or better on a d20 to save against spells, if the spell allowed for a save, was harder in 2e than rolling a 13 or better assuming no bonus in 5e. The difference is an 80% success rate against a 1st level fighter equivalent compared to a 60%, and most spells in 5e repeat save.</p><p></p><p>Save or die actually meant save or die. I strongly disagree that spells were weaker.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>2e, up to 11 first level slots. 5e, up to 4 first level slots. 3.5 up to 6 slots (including WIS bonus) plus 1 domain spell.</p><p></p><p>The one domain spell guarantees a spell that's not healing while spontaneous casting guaranteed clerics could heal regardless of spells selected, allowing for a single more spell prepped. 5e lacks spell slots for clerics too. People play them, but that's beside the point.</p><p></p><p>You indicated 2e was low magic. I disagreed pointing out the massive number of slots. It doesn't actually matter if the spells are cast on healing or not. Of course the expectation was that some was used for healing -- that was very much a niche protection edition and a cleric niche. They are still spells being cast in large numbers and demonstrates using a lot of magic.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First, it doesn't make sense that players not wanting to play clerics in 5e would be why they needed domains in 3e. That would effect before cause and you might have worded that awkwardly. ;-)</p><p></p><p>Second, you might struggle in proving players don't want to play clerics or that they run out of healing fast in 5e. I've never seen clerics run out of slots in 5e blowing them on healing because most healing is down out of combat with more efficient spells and players take short rests for hit dice healing.</p><p></p><p>Claiming it's low magic in light of all those spell slots is simply incorrect. Trying to justify the power or use of those slots was also incorrect and doesn't invalidate the existence or use of so many slots.</p><p></p><p>I did have fun in 2e for years. If that's what you want go for it. You asked opinions and I pointed a few things out. You're still better off with some straight forward DMG adjustments an limiting class and / or spell options.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 7833549, member: 6750235"] Spells did less damage initially and scaled into more damage, saving throws were failed more at low levels than high levels because of the save mechanics used pre 3.x, and repeat save to break attempts weren't a thing then like they are now. Concentration didn't prevent buff stacking. Hypnotism allowed 1d6 targets to be suggested, for example. Casters don't do that with 1st level spells now. Shield lasted 5 rounds / level. Hold person affected 1d4 humanoids for 2 rounds / level with no repeat saves. You could actually sleep a 4 hit die monster. Cause blindness / deafness was permanent. Command had no save check unless a minimum threshold of 13 INT or 6 HD was met. It was pretty easy to pull off 800 damage with creeping doom. Even burning hands at 1d3+2/lvl started poor, yes, but when it was +20 it was definitely more damage than 5e. Preparing hypnotism, color spray, or sleep was a better choice, however. Even the light spell blinded a person for solid debuff 10 min/lvl. Most 5e cantrips were stronger 1st level spells in 2e. Needing to roll a 17 or better on a d20 to save against spells, if the spell allowed for a save, was harder in 2e than rolling a 13 or better assuming no bonus in 5e. The difference is an 80% success rate against a 1st level fighter equivalent compared to a 60%, and most spells in 5e repeat save. Save or die actually meant save or die. I strongly disagree that spells were weaker. 2e, up to 11 first level slots. 5e, up to 4 first level slots. 3.5 up to 6 slots (including WIS bonus) plus 1 domain spell. The one domain spell guarantees a spell that's not healing while spontaneous casting guaranteed clerics could heal regardless of spells selected, allowing for a single more spell prepped. 5e lacks spell slots for clerics too. People play them, but that's beside the point. You indicated 2e was low magic. I disagreed pointing out the massive number of slots. It doesn't actually matter if the spells are cast on healing or not. Of course the expectation was that some was used for healing -- that was very much a niche protection edition and a cleric niche. They are still spells being cast in large numbers and demonstrates using a lot of magic. First, it doesn't make sense that players not wanting to play clerics in 5e would be why they needed domains in 3e. That would effect before cause and you might have worded that awkwardly. ;-) Second, you might struggle in proving players don't want to play clerics or that they run out of healing fast in 5e. I've never seen clerics run out of slots in 5e blowing them on healing because most healing is down out of combat with more efficient spells and players take short rests for hit dice healing. Claiming it's low magic in light of all those spell slots is simply incorrect. Trying to justify the power or use of those slots was also incorrect and doesn't invalidate the existence or use of so many slots. I did have fun in 2e for years. If that's what you want go for it. You asked opinions and I pointed a few things out. You're still better off with some straight forward DMG adjustments an limiting class and / or spell options. [/QUOTE]
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