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Message: <blockquote data-quote="SHARK" data-source="post: 659836" data-attributes="member: 1131">Greetings!Zenon: It will be great to have you attend Zenon, and I am looking forward very much to meeting you! Such an event will be great I am sure!Ashockney: Ok, my friend, you have some great questions and observations here! Hmmm...well, I would say that when I said "it flows naturally from the rules" I meant it in the sense that the tools *are* there for you to use and build with.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I would agree though, that there are some tools that are, as you mentioned, "non-existent to barely there." To some degree, I think there is room for criticism there, especially in regards to rules for a social environment, mass combat, diplomacy, economics, and nuances to magic systems. All of these areas just well, lets just say they're very weak, heh?<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I will also agree that there is a good degree of work cut out for the Game Master to address the issues and topics that aggressive and bold adventurers raise when they get to the 12-20 and beyond range. Indeed, the rules cover timid, straight-laced characters pretty well, but if you've got an aggressive, resource-intensive group like I have, or am myself, for example, there are going to be problems that just simply need to be addressed.True, I have made an extensive effort to address these issues. I suppose that I am used to it however, as 20 years ago when I really began forging my campaign world, I began with D&D, soon transitioned the world to accomodate Warhammer Fantasy, and then adapted the world to the Rolemaster Standard System. Then, in recent years, I have revised it for 3rd Edition D&D. The real genius of my initial game design is that I foresaw that I would want to make changes, so I initially designed it to be open-ended and modular in format. One of these preconditions was that while I was considering making my own game system, I wanted the best things of six different game systems, all combined into one. That never quite happened, but I did want to make my world of unimaginable epic scale, big, bold, and absolutely fantastic enough that I could literally do just about anything I wanted, and I also wanted the world to be big enough to accomodate the dreams and visions of any of my players! If someone wanted to become the emperor of a continent spanning empire, they could do that; If I wanted an undead empire that presented a continental threat, I had the room for it; If I wanted two or three huge empires to have a war that lasted for 1200 years and unleashed magical armageddon, entirely devastating three huge continets, well, I could do that, too. And so on. I created the world to in a sense from the beginning to embrace epic campaigns. So in that regard, I think it is correct to say that one has to plan for an epic campaign when the players are at 1st level. It isn't that you have to throw the whole world at them at that level, but the players must be made aware of an epic, sweeping environment.The question as to what about these higher level people, and why didn't they save the world when we were fighting the lich or whatever at 12th level? Well, as my notes above, the lich that the player fight at 12th level is powerful, but he isn't necessarily trying to conquer the world, yet. Or he's in the process of gaining that power. The epic level characters are in fact fighting liches capable of conquering the world. I suppose it's a question of scale. For example, in my campaign, there are numerous threats at all different levels, at all times. It isn't like everyone at the top knows everything, and can be everywhere and take care of everything, because they can't. In addition, "level" per se, is an individual assessment of power and skill, as opposed to some kind of title or job, if that makes sense? Dragonblade made some comments earlier that are quite instructive in that regard. For example, in the Vallorean Empire, lets suppose the Legates of the Legions are all 40th level Fighters. Well, why don't they go into the Caves of Chaos and defeat the dragon, or the lich, or whatever? Well, unlike the player characters, for example, the Legates or Generals, are in command of 10,000 of the empire's best troops, and are entirely responsible for them. In addition, they are responsible for keeping the border safe from accross the border where tribes of beastmen numbering in the hundreds of thousands wait, always making probing attacks, waiting for the day when they can pour into the soft meat of the Vallorean Empire's heartland and kill, burn, and rape with impunity!<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> That dream of course, is restrained by the presence of armies of legions, all well led and well-equipped, and commanded by tough, razor sharp generals, like the 40th level Fighters that actually command them.Does that make sense? I mean, yes, there are a lot of epic level characters for example, but it isn't like they don't have numerous threats and responsibilities to look after. And, at least in my campaign, even if there is a good number of them, they are still a relatively small number, and there is just far more going on than even they can handle effectively. Thus, there is a need for lower level characters at all times. In another thread, I mentioned how there is a high attrition and turnover rate for high level characters, as well as lower level characters, at least in my campaign. In my world, people die, and often it is a bloody, grim death. Dragons win. The giant champion came out on top. The heroes that went after the Necromancer Fire Giant, well, they failed. They got cought with their pants down, and they got hammered. So, who's next? To be certain, there are heroes and champions who live, and are still alive, and do many great things. I have a whole stable of NPC heroes who are involved in missions all the time, and often succeed. They have managed to make it so that even in the few occasions they have failed in their mission, they have managed to escape with their lives. Now, having said that, I also have whole rosters of high level characters that, unlike in Forgotten Realms, die frequently, and have high attrition rates. In all the wars, special missions, demonic incursions, dragon raids, and so on, epic level heroes die all the time. Thus, there is always in that sense, someone in power who is looking on with interest the next crop of 12th-20th level characters, because epic level characters are not inexhaustible, and they aren't invincible. The same could be said for even lower level characters. I think that a Game Master can run epic level campaigns, but the scale of the game has to open up to accomadate a broad enough reality that can actually "contain" the epic level characters, if you will. Otherwise, you do get what you mentioned, I think to some degree at least. High level characters can come to a point of dangerous dominance. However, even with that, I personally have created a different response. As players reach higher levels, it is important and significant, on a number of levels, but in the "Big Scheme" of things, on a world the size of Jupiter, is there really necessarily anything deeply special about someone who is 12th, or 15th, or 20th level? Not really. In addition, and maybe this is something else that makes my campaign world different, is that what determines the "specialness" of a particular character, for example, has far more to do with who they are as people, than what precise character level they happen to be. The world doesn't notice that one character is a 25th level fighter, and this other fighter over here is a 30th level fighter for example. Certainly, the deeds that a character may do to reach those levels may be known, but the actual title of a certain level isn't really consciously embraced. In addition, in a world the size of Jupiter, with millions and millions of creatures, there is an inexhaustible supply of such monsters and creatures. There are forests for example, that are untouched by human explorers. Within those depths of ancient wood, grow enormous populations of beastmen, monsters, dragons, and so on. Another example: In my campaign, there are huge wars going on between enormous human kingdoms and kingdoms of orcs and goblins that are fought three continents away from the continent where most of the campaign action takes place. For all intents and purposes, those kingdoms might as well be on another world, but nonetheless they are there, and what goes on there does have some effect through trade and so on with their neighbors and trading partners, even if they are one, two, or three continents away. However, there are great champions on that continent that live, fight and die, all without the player characters ever even knowing they exist. That's because I have created a driving, epic world that lives beyond the players consciousness. It isn't that the players aren't special, or powerful, for they indeed are, but the world is still bigger than them, and unless they become an emperor, or some great king, of do something of vast, epic scale, much of the world not only will take little notice of them, but much of the world may have heard very little of them. The world doesn't wait with baited breath for what six people sitting in a tavern somewhere are going to do this spring, regardless of how high a level they are. The world just has more important things to do.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Well, I'll write more in a bit.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Semper Fidelis,SHARK Ace: Ok, I'm back.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Ace, my friend, in addition to some of the above commentary, tell me if I manage to answer all of your questions here. If not, remind me.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Now, epic level play can easily be had in a human-dominated world. Just like in my own campaign though, you have to change the scale of things. In some ways, its kind of like this: Epic level characters are stompers; You have to realise that at epic levels, though lower level people can effect the characters, there is a basement that just is beyond the pale. I believe that level is about 10th. What does that mean? Well, unless you want your epic level heroes to always be fighting against ever-increasingly epic-level enemies, something has to change. If your world is the standard type where 90% of everyone is below 4th level, where does that leave you? Do you see the problem? Do you realise that 20th level characters don't get any experience points for anything below if I recall properly--12th level? In a similar way, though I have a good number of epic level characters in the campaign, I don't have to always threaten them with 30th, 40th, or 50th level characters. No, because groups of 14th, 16th, 18th or 20th level characters can still be quite dangerous.Now, beyond this point, there are some other considerations. The reason that you have to think *big* is to be able to have more options, greater numbers of anything and everything, and big enough to grow new possibilities for an epic campaign. If the continents are small or few, then the balance of power is easily upset, and the campaign can easily go to hell with the actions or failures of a small group of people. By enlarging everything, and changing the scale, this tendency is muted, blunted, and in the end made impossible. This greater scope allows for greater numbers of creatures, or in your case human warriors, or whoever, to form a threat, rather than just merely increasing the level of an opponent again and again. For example; in my campaign, I have some characters that range in the 20-30th level range. Indeed, they are ferocious. But I don't have to always threaten them with a bunch of 30th level characters in order to challenge them. They have retinues by the way, and would make swift work of any opposing small group of six to 12 30th level characters. Because I don't necessarily want to build continuously large groups of ever increasingly higher level opponents, it is much easier to simply create enemy forces of a thousand or two thousand 12th level and up creatures. Or whatever number feels right for the situation in the scenario. The key here is that these forces are equipped well, and cooperate well. They have numerous lower-level magic items, but lots of basic cooperation, and decent basic skills and abilities. There's no need to always up the armament of the enemy forces in order to compete with the player characters.For example, in this situation, the 12th level and up forces, say a few thousand, all have decent enough magic items. However, it is by far their cooperation and tactics that will make the epic level party suffer severely, and even potentially die. No need for great fireworks. You see, in a realistic environment, the players are not going to have the perfect knowledge to know everything. Don't give them an hour to figure everything out to the last detail. No one in real combat has that luxury. Use tactics, let the enemy cooperate and plan, and have some experience in fighting powerful, highly magical enemies. In the hail of coordianted arrows, along with the simulataneous berzerker charges, while a dozen or more human wizards of moderately powerful level concentrate their attacks on one player character after another, believe me, the players will make mistakes, they will be confused, and they will start to suffer, and they will learn to fear their mortality, for they will feel the shadow of death in such a wild, lethal, confusing environment. Keep the players off balance, and always needing to make decisions quickly, and move, move, move. The enemy isn't stupid, and they are always moving, attacking from different angles, with different kinds of forces, never allowing the player characters to focus and concentrate their attention and their abilities on just one area, or just one unit.Keeping these things in mind, large numbers of even considerably lower level humans can really make the players sweat. In the process, they will have gained a great deal of respect for rather normal military forces in your world, and they will have a huge ego identity of believing themselves invincible severely curtailed. They will not have the arrogance to think that only a dragon, lich, or demon prince can defeat them. It is in such environments that they will learn that the broader world moves, makes progress, and advances, just like they do. The world is not static, but dynamic.Now, you might say, well, how can one have such larger numbers of higher level people? Well, I have several assumptions that you can work with;(1) The world itself is bigger, so there is more land, animals, resources, everything--to support larger populations of everything.(2) I assume the magic of the game is followed through with some consistency on a larger, societal level: the use of magic from the wizards and clerics for example ultimately results in larger human and other populations, that are not only larger in number, greatly so, but also superior in health, lifespan, and some additional factors as well.(3) Lower level characters don't accurately represent a an appropriately skilled and experienced adult in virtually any walk of life. Perhaps only beggars, the destitute, teenagers, the very unskilled, would really ever remain less than 4th or 5th level for very long. Relatively quickly, most skilled, experienced adults, would be in the 6th-12th level range. The better, of course, would be even higher. Notice here how the consistency leads into the other issue dealt with above?These assumptions go into making vastly larger populations that are overall quite superior to the typical medieval standard, and while they also serve to represent a more experienced and skilled population that I think are more consistent with the concepts of the game, these assumptions also happen to forge a foundation on which you can make a more diverse, challenging environment for characters of all types, from levels 20 and above.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Let me know what you think my friend.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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