Cataboligne demons' eye rays: wtf?!

[Jhaelen]

I just finished reading 'Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk' and (apart from concluding that it's not the kind of adventure I'm interested in running) I couldn't quite believe my eyes when I read the Cataboligne monster entry:

It's a CR 10 monster with an Eye Ray (Su) ability they can use once per round as a standard action against a single target within 60 feet. If it hits (+15 ranged touch), the target must make a DC 22 Fort save or be paralyzed for 1d6 rounds. If the save succeeds, the target is dazed for 1 round.
For additional fun, the Eye Ray effects are cumulative.

Let's imagine a completely hypothetical encounter involving four of these beasts in an enclosed space against a party of four PCs. Even neglecting all of their other abilities and assuming there's no other enemy around, as far as I can tell, the encounter is effectively over as soon as the Catabolignes get to act.

Has anyone ever used these creatures in a similar encounter that didn't result in a tpk?

The only way I can see to even stand a chance would be a) immunity to daze effects (how?) or b) a rather high touch AC. Having Mettle would probably also help. Anything else?

 

[frankthedm]

Let's imagine a completely hypothetical encounter involving four of these beasts in an enclosed space against a party of four PCs.

An encounter level 14 fight IIRC [edit] in a terrain set up also designed to favor the enemies.

Even neglecting all of their other abilities and assuming there's no other enemy around, as far as I can tell, the encounter is effectively over as soon as the Catabolignes get to act.

Provided no one has Freedom of Movement :: d20srd.org up or Freedom rings were not available in the campaign. Also the exact text of the ability will be important since the daze might only affect the target if it makes the save [RAW can be silly sometimes].

Edit: Some monsters get far worse in groups and the Encounter level / CR system does not always account for this. Improved grabbers are a good example of this type of critter.

 

[udalrich]

For example, Shocker Lizards. One lizard (EL 2) can do 2d8 electrical damage to one creature within 5 feet. Two lizards (EL 4) can do 4d8 damage to all creatures within 20 feet of one of the lizards.

They are great monsters if you want to teach your players the value of concentrating fire.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Since the eye ray is a standard action, the demon is basically sacrificing his action to remove yours. Also, a DC 22 fort save is pretty makeable for a mid-level character, and +15 touch is pretty good but will miss a high-level dex-based character a decent amount of the time. It is a nasty ability, but if it's the demon's primary ability, there's worse things out there (Beholders, anyone?, Eye of Fear and Flame, etc.).

 

[coyote6]

The real problem is when there's at least one of these things for each PC, and then another monster or two. Then they can lock down the PCs, and the other monster can kill the PCs slowly.

But really, this isn't quite unique. Take two balors (or two of any other monsters with at-will blasphemy) vs a party of level 19-20. One blaspheme's every round, the other murders them one by one.

Like frankthedm said, some monsters can have synergies that the CR system can't account for (and probably no such threat measurement system could account for). It's like unexpected synergies in PC abilities that get exploited in some overpowered CharOp "builds", just on the DM's side of the screen.

 

[Runestar]

Your wizard has never heard of ray deflection?

But really, this isn't quite unique. Take two balors (or two of any other monsters with at-will blasphemy) vs a party of level 19-20. One blaspheme's every round, the other murders them one by one.

You don't even need 2 balors, since a balor is capable of summoning another balor.

Though my personal favourite is still the sea hag - the DC is crap, but daze for 3 days?!?

 

[Jhaelen]

Provided no one has Freedom of Movement :: d20srd.org up or Freedom rings were not available in the campaign.

Oops. Does Freedom of Movement make you immune to daze? For some reason that never occured to me. It kind of makes sense, though, considering paralyzation is mentioned. So, I guess, FoM also provides immunity to stun effects?

 

[Jhaelen]

Since the eye ray is a standard action, the demon is basically sacrificing his action to remove yours. Also, a DC 22 fort save is pretty makeable for a mid-level character, and +15 touch is pretty good but will miss a high-level dex-based character a decent amount of the time. It is a nasty ability, but if it's the demon's primary ability, there's worse things out there (Beholders, anyone?, Eye of Fear and Flame, etc.).

I disagree. The problem here is that a standard party's actions are completely negated by the eye rays. It doesn't matter how easy or difficult the saving throw is. Even if the Fort save only fails on a one, there's nothing to prevent the Catabolignes from using their eye rays for 20 rounds until the save is failed. Then it's coup-de-grace time.

To survive such an encounter you need to have some means to negate the daze effect or you're hosed. It's true that the group may have one high-dex character who manages to avoid getting hit once every couple of rounds, but in the not-quite-so-hypothetical encounter I have in mind, that wouldn't have helped a lot.

I guess, the idea is to let the party escape after showing them that they're outmatched. Given the chance of preparing for the encounter, they will be better equipped to deal with it.

I agree that there are worse things out there, but beholders are not one of them. First, beholders are CR13, second you usually don't encounter them in groups, third, their touch attack isn't as good, fourth, they cannot use their rays when they use their central eye, fifth none of the eye rays are that bad when you make the save (the worst that will happen is some damage).

I recently used beholders against the pcs in my group, so my memory of how potent they are is pretty fresh. They're very nasty and a bit unpredictable, but even a party that is unprepared will have plenty of ways to deal with them - or get away and avoid them.

I remember one encounter, though, that was indeed similarly bad: Three hezrous. Once they got to act, every round one of them used blasphemy while the other two blasted the group with chaos hammer and unholy blight. That would have been nine rounds of softening up the group unopposed if I didn't have shown some mercy. The group immediately fled by teleporting away when they first got the chance.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Oops. Does Freedom of Movement make you immune to daze? For some reason that never occured to me. It kind of makes sense, though, considering paralyzation is mentioned. So, I guess, FoM also provides immunity to stun effects?

Fyi, here's an old thread on this topic. There's a lot of good discussion for/against in that thread.

 

[Runestar]

Even if the Fort save only fails on a one, there's nothing to prevent the Catabolignes from using their eye rays for 20 rounds until the save is failed. Then it's coup-de-grace time.

And what is the party doing during the 20 rounds they are being pelted by the eye rays and making their saves?

It will be much harder against wizards and rogues. Quite useful for disabling the arcane caster at the start of a fight.