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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1590414" data-attributes="member: 3146">I don't think there's any balance problem with these spells. The MotW versions were useless since they had to be cast before a character took damage and there was never any guarantee that a particular character was going to take damage soon enough for the spell to be useful.As after combat healing, they're potentially useful yes. However, deciding to use these spells instead of cures for after combat healing puts good clerics in the shoes of evil clerics. They have to choose between having the flame strike or dispel magic available and having a Vigorous Circle just like evil clerics have to choose between having a cure serious and a dispel magic. The good cleric, however, has the slightly less efficient but more useful in combat option to burn either dispel magic or the vigor spell for a cure serious, however, so unlike the evil cleric who has no healing if he doesn't prepare it, the good cleric still has healing without preparing the vigor spell. Thus, given that the opportunity cost of preparing a non-vigor spell is dramatically lower for the good cleric than the opportunity cost of preparing something other than a cure spell is for the evil cleric, I can't imagine vigor dominating anyone's spell lists.Extended, they're even less of an issue. An extended lesser vigor will heal 24 hit points. However, a cure moderate wounds spell will heal an average of 12 hit points at clvl 3, gets better than that as the caster level increases, and doesn't need to be prepared. That's a minimum of 50% the efficiency of lesser vigor--not a minumum of 45% like CLW vs. lesser vigor. And the efficiency of cure spells increases as the caster level increases.Now, with wands, the issue is different. A wand of vigor has a cost of about 1.2 gp/hit point healed while a wand of CLW has a cost of about 2.8gp/hit point healed. However, it's important to bear a few things in mind.First, complete book spells are only available when the DM says they are and to whom the DM says they are in most campaigns. Thus, in my campaign, the vigor spells would be given to some clerics but not to others. So, some clerics would heal with wands of lesser vigor and others would use wands of CLW. But some DMs want to use all of the rules in every supplement as written. Even in that case, however, there are significant reasons to use cure spells and wands instead of vigor spells and wands to heal. First, a wand of cure light wounds can be used by anyone. Is the cleric down? The bard, paladin, or ranger can use the wand of CLW. A wand of vigor? You need the cleric or a druid. The secondary healers can't touch it.The first level vigor spell would take over a minute per charge to do it's curing. Thus if the party has spelled up for an assault and the barbarian has taken 24 points of damage (not at all unusual in games around 3rd-4th level where wands first come into play), it will take a little over two minutes for him to be fully healed. By that time, his bull's strength spell and the wizard's shield spell will have expired and enemy reinforcements will probably have arrived. On the other hand, using a wand of CLW, that barbarian will be healed in about four rounds. That still leaves him a minute and a half on his bull's strength spell and the wizard's shield spell--enough time to go down the next hallway and have another battle.Though it's probably not a pressing concern for anyone who buys wands of cure spells, the cure spell wands can also be used to damage undead and the various vigor spell wands would not be able to do so.Potions of the vigor spells would probably not sell very well at all. The main purpose of a potion is for IN-COMBAT healing when the cleric can't get to you or is out of spells. Vigor is dramatically inferior to cure spells in that role.Given all of that, I would imagine that, were wands of lesser vigor to become generally available in a campaign, they would gather about half of the existing market for wands of cure light wounds and would be used for non-time sensetive after combat healing. They probably wouldn't impact the use of healing potions or higher level cure wands (which are generally used for combat healing). All told, I don't see anything wrong or game-breaking about that. Overall, unless your PCs make a conscious decision never to use the cleric's spells to heal up but always to use wands, it's probably likely to save a round 750-1500 gp over four levels (4-8) for a party of six. That's worth doing but it won't even pay for an extra +1 mace and is nothing a DM need worry about.</blockquote>

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